March 15th, 2005

I knew as soon as I saw the Steve Levy article that we would see a backlash about the domination of whites and males in the weblogging ranking systems. While my "Guys Don't Link" post tried to make a point with humor, and invite the guys to be part of the joke, and the understanding that follows, Levy's was guaranteed to first of all get notice (after all, he is a white male journalist); get credibility (after all, he is a white male journalist); and, lastly, generate a great deal of guilt.

Guilt is the killer of conversations and the destroyer of discussion because no one wants guilt dumped on them. Mr. Levy, you have hurt us, and you did so with no more than a passing glance and a feeling that "this is just another story".

But it happened and here we are, and though I sympathize with Roxanne's weariness of this discussion, I do want to speak to this backlash, and the causes for it. And then I too, will have exhausted all that I can say on the topic, and walk away from it.

First, to the white guys who have been proclaiming your race and sex with such pride: It would seem that not only are you not content with being king of the hill, you also want to be chief underdog, too. Not content to being the center of too many dialogs within weblogging, you also want to be the center of one discussion that, oddly enough, doesn't center around you: being a weblogger who is not a male, or is not white, or both.

So you've perverted the discussion until it is all about you, effectively shutting it down, while making sure that the bits you so desperately need understand that their rightful place is forming a swarm about you.

You see, White Guys, it's all about you. And you'll do everything in your power to destroy even an effective conversation, unless it is all about you.

When Levy mentioned 'lack of diversity' and pointed a finger at the grouped white males, you cried out 'foul' and hastened to point out that Glenn Reynolds and Atrios may be white and male, but they have different opinions, and hence any group they're in, is diverse. All I can say is that George Wallace would have been proud of your verbal footwork, and supported your distinction.

When a gentle and curious question about having a conference focused on women in weblogging is proposed, you come into comments and you harrangue and harrass and manipulate the discussion, until the concept is tainted almost beyond repair, and yes, the conversation does flow around 'you'. I, being tired, fell for the trap. Again. I forgot that the greatest hurt I can do to you, the most effective weapon I have, is to ignore you; by not feeding this insatiable and sad need you have, to have all of this be about you.

You proudly claim that yes, you are white guys and discount all the concerns and questions that are being asked, and the challenges being made–not because you necessarily disagree, but because the conversation isn't about you. It doesn't matter if you're seen as good or bad, right or wrong; all that matters is that the conversation be about you.

For once, we had the opportunity to actually explore issues of diversity in weblogging — international as compared to US-based webloggers; white as compared to not white; male and female. We could have grown and been enriched, and maybe we would all been the better for it. More importantly, we may have looked more closely at the technology that drives our perceptions, and had a chance to explore whether blogrolls and popularity lists are more harm then they are worth.

Instead, in a burst of emotional self-defense, it became Whitey versus the Gang. I am waiting for one or more of you to put "White Male and Damn Proud of It!" stickers in your sidebars, as you nod among yourselves about putting down this particular insurrection. After all, this is the ultimate egalitarian environment–anyone can have a weblog. Anyone can become famous. All you have to do, is write well.

Except that you forget that popularity in this environment can lead to opportunity, which, in turn, generates more popularity, and hence more opportunity and so on. Or maybe I have it wrong–you never forget this.

Let me ask you all something, though: if members of Congress or Parliment or whatever body rules you, did what you are all doing now, standing up in session and yelling out, "I am white and I am male!", would you support this?

If President Bush or Tony Blair or Howard started their next speech with, "I am white, and I am male!", would you support this?

If the next time most major corporate boards got together the members stood up and said, "I am white, and I am male!", would you support this?

I would ask that the white guys attending the O'Reilly ETech conference stand up before each session and proudly proclaim, "I am white, and I am male!" If they do, would you support this? (ETech attendees do me a favor: do this, please. I think more could come of this one act than anything I've been saying for three years to Tim O'Reilly.)

Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I still think something constructive can be derived from all of this, and that is to look more closely at the technology that is generating the divide between us. I asked earlier whether blogrolls and popularity lists cause more harm than good. I think the answer is, a resounding, "Yes!"

I'm going to borrow some words from Jon Stewart, when he appeared on Cross-Fire (bless you, Norm, for making these videos available). He accused the Cross-Fire journalists, and, in fact, many journalist of harming America because of partisan reporting. He said a simple thing: You are hurting us.

At the time, I didn't agree with Stewart, for about the same reasons I don't agree with Levy now. I felt Stewart does more with his satire than he did with this direct confrontation. However, I'm beginning to appreciate the strength of his simple, and compelling approach.

So I'll say this, directly and honestly, to Dave Sifry from Technorati: Dave, you are hurting us.

The Technorati Top 100 is too much like Google in that 'noise' becomes equated with 'authority'. Rather than provide a method to expose new voices, your list becomes nothing more than a way for those on top to further cement their positions. More, it can be easily manipulated with just the release of a piece of software.

You have focused on comment spam and you see this as the most harm to this community, all the while providing the weapon that is truly tearing us apart. You are hurting us, Dave.

NZ Bear, you are hurting us. With your Ecosystem, you count links on the front page, which give precedence to blogroll links over links embedded within writings, and then classify people in a system equating mammals and amoeba. Your site serves as nothing more than a way for higher ranked people to feel good about themselves, and lower ranked to feel discouraged. There is no discovery inherent in your system — no way of encouraging new voices to be heard. So NZ, you are, also, hurting us.

In fact, to every weblogger who has a blogroll: you are hurting all of us.

Rarely do people discover new webloggers through blogrolls; most discovery comes when you reference another weblogger in your writings. But blogrolls are a way of persisting links to sites, forming a barrier to new voices who may write wonderful things — but how they possibly be heard through the static, which is the inflexible, immutable, blogroll?

So for all of you who have a blogroll, you are also hurting us.

If I had a wish right now, I would wish one thing: that we remove all of our blogrolls and take down the EcoSystem and the Technorati 100 and all of the other 'popularity' lists. That whatever links exist, are honest ones based on what has been written, posted, published, not some static membership in a list that is, all too often, stale and out of date, and used as a weapon or a plea.

I would suggest the same for your syndication lists, too–when did you last update it to reflect those sites you really read? I would be content,though, if centralized aggregators such as Bloglines stopped publishing the number of subscriptions for each feed. After all, what true value is this information?

Then we would all start fresh. It would be a new start, and the emphasis would be less on who we know and who we are, then what is being said.

And now, I return to topics of greater cheer: travel and photography and technology, and following my yearly ritual of tweaking the folks at ETech.

Jonathon Delacour heard the call for a sidebar sticker, and has come through in admirable fashion.

Gents, this is for you:

Comments
1
jeneane - 2:55 pm 3/15/2005

This is, without doubt, one of the most important pieces ever written about weblogging. I wish it were required reading.

Unfortunately, the backslapping's getting so loud out there that the people who need to read it probably can't hear over their own wheezing. Nontheless, Thank you Shelley. You couldn't have come back at a better time.

"Except that you forget that popularity in this environment can lead to opportunity, which, in turn, generates more popularity, and hence more opportunity and so on. Or maybe I have it wrong–you never forget this."

If they don't read anything else, maybe they'll read that paragraph. Or maybe they'll continue to consider this all about them and continue on with the jokes and cowboy banter.

As I said in writing about Doc and David the other day, to see them becoming and furthering the biz-as-usual/forces/hierarchies they've made a career of debunking is disheartening.

Never mind the ones who've never had a clue.

2

The arguments you quote from white men as to why women shouldn't complain about their status vis-a-vis male bloggers reminds me of the SF judge's recent pronouncement on the unconstitutionality of the gay marriage ban yesterday: you can't deny legal benefits just because you say you offer equal access to living together. Just because women have equal access to blogging, doesn't guarantee us equal control over the blogosphere.

Ranking stuff — as Technorati and Fortune magazine and almost every academic, governmental, and sporting organization does — reflects the ruling class's (yes, mostly white male) way of world domination. One conquers by ranking everything. I would like to think that women hold a more encompassing, more inclusive way of sharing communication, wealth, and power, and from what I've been reading in women's blogs, I find that to be the case.

3
Euan - 3:13 pm 3/15/2005

I agree with you Shelley about the various ratings systems and their tendency to discourage less "popular" writers. I also agree that there is a real risk that we all end up reading the same stuff and lose out on diversity - whatever form it takes.

However I would find it hard to delete my blogroll - they feel like a statement about me as much as about them. I once described them as my village.

4
memer - 3:16 pm 3/15/2005

I'll have to turn this post around some more in me noggin, but for sure I question the nobody-reads-blogrolls bit. When I started blogging, I invariably cruised other people's blogrolls for more trails to explore. I don't do it as often anymore (there is a good amt of overlap often enuff. heh), but am I an exception?

And is there really that much difference between blogrolls and intra-post linking? Not convinced of the utility of bannishing this unique blog tradition.

5
Roxanne - 3:29 pm 3/15/2005

Despite my boredom with the overall topic, I DO agree with most of what you've written here.

One thing I disagree with, however, is the blogroll thing. A "higher-profile" blogger added my weblog to their blogroll about a month ago. He has never linked to my site in a post. A direct result of being added to that particular blogroll has been a marked increase in regular readers.

6
Euan - 3:38 pm 3/15/2005

Actually Shelley having just tried to initiate a trackback to your post I noticed you have that turned off. So if we have no blogrolls, no trackback and are having a go at Technorati how do we achieve the linkiness between stories that you feel should replace the blogroll?

7
memer - 3:39 pm 3/15/2005

Just watched CNN's "Inside the Blogs" segment of "Inside Politics." They're talking about how some of us want in on the 'A' list action; BlogHerCon and such. These guys are so behind.

But I just thought of one key reason for keeping blogrolls: they make it easier to find what you want. Technorati tags aside (ha), with blogrolls you only need to fine ONE example of the kind of content you're after and you're off to the races.

For example, in the last Winer flareup, I discovered Jeneane in a comment box somewhere and through her blogroll I found you and lots others. Lawd knows blogrolls aren't always 'gold' but the trail's the thing. No?

8
shelleyp - 4:21 pm 3/15/2005

How do we discover each other? Through delightful instances of serendipty and joyful explorations and happy accidents. How we've always discovered each other.

Through comments in weblogs and through links in posts and because people see something that interests or angers them or excites them and they are filled with anticipation and hop over and hopefully don't come away disappointed.

We find each other through our words, those we take as a gift, and those we give as a gift. And yes, through our links, but they are meaningful links — not a passive blogroll that sits there, managed by our technology, sometimes remembered, many times forgotten.

I would have no problems with blogrolls, but combined with Top 100 lists, they are harmful, because these top lists favor position rather than ability. If NZ and Dave were to come in an promise they would drop these popularity lists, I would say, keep your blogroll! But I find it unlikely they will, and since I only have minor influence with them, my hope is more to influence all of us, and slowly but surely, eat away at the concrete pillars that keep getting in our way.

Euan, yes I dropped trackback, in favor of tagback (really need to expand on this more), and following links from Bloglines and Technorati — services which I feel do add value in the community. I don't want to shut down conversations, I just would like to hear more of you.

9
Euan - 4:33 pm 3/15/2005

I was agreeing with you on the serendipity Shelley - just that as referrer logs get busier trackback and Technorati are the main ways of seeing who has found what I have written interesting enough to point to me and that is a good way of discovering new people who I am likely to find interesting.

Although that does sound as if I want my own echo chamber ……

10
Alison - 4:54 pm 3/15/2005

Well said.

As silly as this sounds, my first thoughts of BlogHerCon was: oh no, I love guys, and there would be no guys there. With more thought, though I think BlogHerCon would be a good thing. Why not a BlogHimCon across town for those who feel left out?

One more point: did anyone crack up that Larry Summers hired consultants to smooth over his image after the uproar-inducing comments last month? The three image consultants were white men. I just found that hilarious.

11
Tom Shugart - 5:02 pm 3/15/2005

I agree with Jeneane that you've made an important argument here–one with many compelling points. I also agree with all of the commenters who value the function of blogrolls.

What Roxanne says is so true–that a popular blogger puts you on their roll and you get the wonderful gift of new readers–even though that blogger didn't link to you in his/her text. And you certainly don't get on a popular blogger's roll through bad writing. So scratch the word "gift." You earned those new readers, but it wouldn't have happened without the blogroll.

Then there's the sheer convenience. Even though syndicated feeds are now the preferred way of speed surfing, I still click on my roll many times thoughout the day. It still functions for me as it always has–as a cyber version of my radio's speed dial.

And there's a third function. Pride, maybe? I'm not ashamed to say that I'm proud to have the names of some great bloggers right next to my text. It says "this is who I read, and I take pride in being in community with them, even if only as a reader."

12
Elisa - 5:20 pm 3/15/2005

Shelley, your multiple posts around this general topic continue to be required reading as we move forward to put on Bloghercon. You articulate perfectly why I, personally, care about this issue with this:

"Except that you forget that popularity in this environment can lead to opportunity, which, in turn, generates more popularity, and hence more opportunity and so on. Or maybe I have it wrong–you never forget this."

I have seen some, just some, of the reaction coming from certain quarters on the very shocking idea of Bloghercon, and I wonder if people can see themselves from the outside and see how threatened and defensive and petty they sound. It's as though they want to illustrate why Bloghercon would be a cool alternative.

So, I agree with most things you say.

The blog rolls…not so much. A local woman here recently started a blog. In her second post she said she read a profile of me on vault.com, got inspired to read my blogs, then clicked to other women's blogs in my blog roll, and from there became inspired to start her own. That's a little victory, no?

Those of us who have been trolling around for a while may have become disenchanted with blog rolls, or lost our need for them to find new voices. But I think new blog community members still use them.

13

well thought and well said. i just deleted my blogroll.

14

i'm reminded of john lennon's "jealous guy":

I was dreaming of the past.
And my heart was beating fast,
I began to lose control,
I began to lose control,

I didn't mean to hurt you,
I'm sorry that I mad you cry,
I didn't want to hurt you,
I'm just a jealous guy,

I was feeling insecure,
You night not love me any more,
I was shivering inside,
I was shivering inside,

I was trying to catch your eyes,
Thought that you were trying to hide,
I was swallowing my pain,
I was swallowing my pain.

15
Doug Alder - 8:26 pm 3/15/2005

I have to agree with Alisa, Shelley. I would likely never have found a great many of the people I read on a daily basis, including you, if it were not for someone's blogroll. When I find someone I like to read I generally go through their blogroll on the assumption that if I like them I'm sure to find someone I like in the people they like. Additionally there are more than a few who I read who do not have RSS feeds so I read them by clicking on then in my blogroll. It has use for me, and I know a couple of readers have found other blogs to read because of it, so for me that's enough value to keep it.

16
SB - 8:37 pm 3/15/2005

I, too, always learn something from reading what you write; that's why you are on my blogroll. I do use my blogroll, and other people's blogrolls — and I'm often delighted to find myself on the blogroll of someone whose writing I admire.

Now, I have lots of blogrolls, and some are more selective than others. Some — like my "Poets & Poetics" blogroll — are very inclusive, because I think of it as a place for folks to find a wide variety of poetry, some of which I don't like, but others do. My 'favorites' on my front page are just that — favorites. And I really do read my Bloglines.

So I would be sad to see these disappear from other sites — I still spend time, about weekly, perusing someone else's blogroll.

17
jeneane - 9:02 pm 3/15/2005

Okay I like blogrolls too. Just had to add that. Well, I like MY blogroll. I don't like some other people's blogrolls. In fact, I want to institute that everyone adopt my blogroll as their own–except you have to add me to it. ;-)

Sorry–Just going for some levity.

Maybe we should drop the Technorati Top 100 and keep our blogrolls.

18
didier - 9:03 pm 3/15/2005

RE: the blogrolls. That's where rel="nofollow" would be useful, wouldn't it? Personally, I'm for full disclosure: publishing not only the links on my blogroll, but also the ones I read in my rss feed reader.

19
Ken Camp - 9:09 pm 3/15/2005

I’m a white male and I almost killed my blogroll. At least that was the heading a the last post I wrote. I too struggle with mixed feelings, but I have to agree with Euan. If I find fault it's in that Blogrolling made it easy to grow a horrendous blogroll of people I don't read, care about, or think are relevant.

I'm personally finding that with Wordpress and Firefox it's fairly easy to pop a link on either Bloglines or my blogroll very quickly. I've tended to use the blogroll to easily. But more importantly, it's become a catch all that I haven't taken the time to hand craft and categorize into what it really should be.

I was going to kill it this afternoon. Then I looked at the names - Jeaneane, Shelley, Suw, Elaine. Don Park isn't a white mail. Doug and Jon are white males, but Canadian, therefore non-white white (ok that was a joke). Then there are a host of folks I think say smart things and I want them getting any linkylove they get from me.

So my first step was to hide a bunch of links and take the stand I won't link A-listers there without some reason tied to relevance to me and engagement. If I become actively engaged and involved with someone like that, maybe it will make sense.

I set out on the Bloggers 12 step plan. I'm a blogger and I haven't linked to anyone in 30 minutes. One day and a time and I'll see. I agree, but I think I agree less the more I think about it. ;-)

20
Arthur - 9:34 pm 3/15/2005

I have a disgust for the word 'blogroll'. I don't think mine is a blogroll: it's merely a list of sites I use as a reference because as a programmer I have other things to think of than memorizing urls.

I call them bookmarks.

Great work that 'edit comment' feature. I caught me-own spelling errors. Thanks, Shelley.

21

To discover new weblogs about topics that are of interest to you, just use saved Feedster searches. Works pretty well.

I killed my blogroll when I started up Groundhog Day after retiring Time's Shadow. I also killed the SiteMeter counter.

22
Lauren - 10:12 pm 3/15/2005

You have a great post here, Shelley.

One thing: I once deleted my blogroll and decided to just make my bloglines account public. I do read every blog on the roll, albeit intermittently, and manage to get through every blog on my bloglines account just about every two days. However, when I deleted the blogroll I got several comments from readers asking me to bring it back. Many non-bloggers indicated that they piggyback off of our rolls to get around the internet.

Also, my least favorite thing about switching to bloglines-only was missing out on some of the great web design that ameteurs are doing. In some cases, that aspect adds as much ethos to the site as the blogroll.

23

'Blogroll' grew out of 'logroll', the uneuphonious truncation of 'logrolling', which of course was and is the much-frowned-upon practice of authors swapping quotable pimpage of each other's books, to be included on dust jackets and back covers. Circle-jerkery, in other words.

This, we seem to forget.

The insecurity or in equal measure the overweening self-regard of many bloggers — both personality traits that I possess in abundance, and both personality traits that manifest in the same kind of outward behaviours that weblogging rewards richly — mean that linking to attempt to form tribes will never stop, nor will attempts to game the system and accumulate the largest and shiniest piles of the coin of the realm.

When weblogging was new, and microcelebrities were more emphatically micro-, blogrolling and Top-100ing were a service to everyone who wanted to join the fun.

Now, not so much. I say kill all reference to the Top 100 (or 500 or…) in the lists; start the counting at 101 and on down. Don't put your daily reads in your blogroll, if you have one, not if they've been around for a long time, or get more than a few score hits a day — put new discoveries in there, people who are new to the game, and could use the exposure, and who have things to say and say them well.

Or, like me, don't bother with it at all, other than the occasional drunken egosurf. Whatever.

24

This is really evocative, Shelley. I'm not totally sure I agree with you — I've found quite a bit of amazing reading through other people's blogrolls, and even through Technorati's top 100 — but there's certainly an echo chamber among the elite, and that's a damn shame.

I think the problem is that Technorati (et al.) is too useful to just give up — for one, it makes very plain the existence of an elitist echo chamber — but it also contributes to the very problems it can expose. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I guess I'd hope that tools could be created that parallel Technorati's utility without perpetuating elitism.

On the other hand, elitism in some form — usually of the straight-white-male form — exists in quite a number of places today, from academia to the boardroom, and I'm not sure that its existence in the blogosphere is fixable without fixing the greater problem at the same time.

Anyway, I don't think this comment has much of a point, but your posts over the past few days have certainly been evocative, and I just wanted to share what you've been evoking with you.

Thanks!

25

'As I said in writing about Doc and David the other day, to see them becoming and furthering the biz-as-usual/forces/hierarchies they've made a career of debunking is disheartening.'

I — and you, and others, jeneane — have been saying this for a good long time now. I still read Dr W. and the rest, of course, but it's more of a chore than a joy these days. Got to obsessively keep up with this shit as the days run away like horses over the hill, don't I? Sigh.

(Also, contrary-like, Mr Locke continues to kick almighty ass, even if he is pimping that company, whoever the hell they are. His rep remains untarnished, for me.)

26
Gary - 10:25 pm 3/15/2005

I keep a list of links (blogroll, I guess you've called it here) because they're the places I read every day and putting them on my blog is convenient…I also makes it obvious where my posts are coming from, as you can more or less trace the list of places I check every day…)

I guess I don't keep a link list as a pointer to other people as much as a conventience for me…my daily reading list…)

27

I consider the people/sites on my blogroll as part of my affinity group. They're not all there for the same reason, but they're all there for some reason that's near to my heart. I read them every day, or as often as they post.

I change my blogroll infrequently… when someone goes quiet for a long time, or somehow shifts gears in a way that redefines them so as to change my sense of affinity.

There are also A LOT of sites in my aggregator that I read daily that will never be on my blogroll. I play close attention to them, but I don't think that list would be as helpful for someone to get a flavor for what I care about as my blogroll is.

I've also discovered wonderful sites by checking out my blogrollees' blogrolls. I often discover that someone two links away from me, in that sense, also blogrolls several of my favorites. I definitely get a bird-of-a-feather, neighborly feeling from that.

I use my aggregator to ensure that I don't always stay in a cozy echo chamber.

For a long time I refrained from linking to dooce, figuring she already had more than enough link-love. But then I decided that I really and truly appreciated what she offers, and it would be a form of reverse discrimination on my part to leave her off. Now she's won a zillion Bloggies, which of course I didn't vote in, and apparently I'm just one in a pulsing crowd of fangirls. Oh well!

For a long while I was obsessed with the various page rank metrics. Now, I could care less. Quality, not quantity. I'm very proud of my maybe twelve readers.

{edited for typos, yes I am a fanatic}

28
Jonathon - 4:56 am 3/16/2005

Thirteen.

29

This is why I like the bloglines blogroll, it is updated with who you actually read. When I joyfully discovered your blog and subscribed, you were instantly added to my blogroll.

30

Bloglines says Pascale Soleil has 19 from there alone…and there is no true value in that number other than vanity. :-)

I do agree that the Top X feed info is pretty useless; however, i find blogrolls extremely useful.

As for the intro to the meat of the post; i don't get it. Seems like a few folks are fighting to be the best victim. An outlet for Munchausen Syndrome perhaps? Dunno. What i do know is that there is ample room at the "loneliness" end of the Long Tail for all of us. Come, join the party.

31
dave rogers - 8:18 am 3/16/2005

"As for the intro to the meat of the post; i don’t get it. Seems like a few folks are fighting to be the best victim."

Well, the second sentence is hardly an invitation to resolve the first, now is it?

I don't wish to imply any hostility or mean-spiritedness in your post, because I didn't detect any; but I think that it simultaneiously indicates why there is an issue, and why you and others don't get it.

32

And none was implied… I just simply don't understand what the issue(s) is(are). The theme seems to popularity; hence my party invitation. I'm contently unpopular. ;-)

33
Anonymous - 11:57 am 3/16/2005

Congratulations. You are a racist, and you are a sexist. You are everything vile and evil that you attribute to others. Until you can learn some tolerance for people who are not exactly like you, anything you build will be tainted with your hate.

34

Thanks very much for writing this — I tried (again) this year to get the awful gender skew in open source on the agenda at the O'Reilly conference, and (again) failed. I used to hope that if enough of us raised our voices, Tim O. would pay attention; I no longer believe that, but I'm still glad to hear voices being raised.

Greg Wilson
http://www.sdmagazine.com/documents/s=9411/sdm0411b/sdm0411b.html?temp=q0EyFJ8adS

35
fp - 12:09 pm 3/16/2005

Wow. Shelley, I think you should delete that comment from Anonymous! How ill-informed… with an emphasis on the ill!

36
memer - 12:12 pm 3/16/2005

Fourteen.

But what's with the endless fascination with the Top 100? Sure, let's exhort them to be more inclusive but, let's be real, in any large social grouping, there's bound to form a hierarchy of some sort. It's almost never strictly a meritocracy. All we can do is try to make it as "fair" as possible. What a wasted energy to attempt a flatland egalitarianism.

True a lot of those lists is self-feeding, first-to-market inertia but the other thing is that it's also partly a reflection of what kinds of topics are most popular in the blogosphere. The world's best-written cat blog will (with the blogosphere's present demographic), only attract so much audience.

In other words, it's not mostly about best writing, these lists. That should be obvious to all but the most zealous overdog lovers. I'm absolutely convinced that a superior writer such as Shelley, if she turned her focus to consistently write about the same kinds of things Winer, Doc et all write about, she'd be a top-tenner for sure.

I just don't see the point of cutting off our very useful noses to spite a face who couldn't give a rat's ass. Is this nuke-the-rolls! effort all just to try to bring 'them' down? Perhaps a worthy cause, but there are routes and there are routes. All this has the unfortunate aroma of a regurgitated desire to lash back at the "popular kids" in high school. Screw em, I say.

I tells ya, I wouldn't flinch an iota if the TOP-blah-blogs were expunged. But I might be hurt if blogrolls bit the dust. Not because of links to/for me, but because I (and newcomers to the 'sphere) would now have far fewer trails to wander.

We can separate the utility of the contextless Technorati/TLB Top-whatever lists, from the human-cultivated micronetworks that are blogrolls. What might be handy for Mr. Sifry and team to implement is a separate list, a kind of "Fast Risers" list. Most new links in a week? Can't be too hard. Iono. Just talkin loud again.

37
shelleyp - 1:02 pm 3/16/2005

First, many thanks for great comments. And I can hear those of you who feel an affinity to your blogrolls–I like to think that my listing people's URLs in the Recent Comment list represents a kind of rolling blogroll, because I do read those who comment here.

My preference would be to lose the 'top' lists and not have any lists at all. We have sites that track what the items most discussed are, and that should be enough, in addition to using some of the newer technologies, such as tagback. We don't need 'lists' of people who are listed for no other reason than quantity of links.

What's interesting if you go to Technorati, and divide number of links into number of mentions, you can almost see who is linked in blogrolls and who generates discussion. I guess we can call this the 'relevance' factor.

Unfortunately, these lists are not going away because this is a key power item for both NZ and Technorati — and as we know, people don't like to give up power. It's too bad, though, because this item will continue to be raised, again and again, and we'll never have resolution until we dump the technology that causes such division.

Sure we can 'ignore' the lists, but published rank impacts on the discussions, and more importantly, who is being heard. Not just internal to weblogging, but externally, too. Too many people see folks who are heavily linked in blogrolls as an 'authority'. All too often, they're just the biggest blowhard on the block.

As for blogrolls, unfortunately as we've found over the years, these are not a completely a positive thing to have. Even with the best of intentions, the desire for intimacy to those linked, the respect and admiration implied, blogrolls have caused a lot of problems in the last few years. That's the way of technology — it can create as many problems as it solves.

Damn all us techies, anyway ;-)

People should not change their weblogs and what's listed because of what anyone says, including me. So if a blogroll is important to you, than by all means, it should stay.

(And that's "Shelley Powers aka Burningbird" — hee).

Ah, Frank, if I delete the comment, I would give it more importance than it's worth. It's just a typical anony, and worth as much as the name attached to it.

(And the vote to strip the ANWR amendment from the budget was just voted out in the Senate, and I'm disappointed and going to go walk outside while there's still some forest left.)

38
Bud Gibson - 5:12 pm 3/16/2005

You talk about white males, but what I really think you mean is people in the power clique. Yes, they do have power and want to hold it.

Those of us who are not powerful have to find a way to survive no matter what our race or gender.

39
Dossy - 5:46 pm 3/16/2005

Wow. Men, being typical men, are hurting women. Where does the pattern of abuse end?

What do battered wives do in meatspace? Why is the blogosphere so goddamned different?

40

not have any lists at all

Take this to the next level, and we should all delete our blogs. Mine's a list of what I'm thinking/typing about at any particular time. Most are the same. Even when I hand-coded a personal website (two miles uphill in the snow), it was a basically a bunch of lists. There's no escaping them in computing, and hence they will forever be a part of the internet.

Lists get whatever power they have (which is really very little) from the people who read and act on them. Personally, I ignore them and I'd urge anyone else to do the same. Your community is what matters, and only you get to decide that. YMMV, IMHO, etc.

41
Chris - 8:42 pm 3/16/2005

Shelly, I've always enjoyed your writing even when I have strongly disagreed with that. Today though, I disagree with you only on one thing - blogrolls. I got into weblogs because of them, I found your site through them. Hell, I think the first site that linked to me was yours through your "commenters" list or whatever you had way back when.

That said, I've never displayed my list on my site though I'm sorely tempted to with Bloglines capabilities. Not really as a sign of popularity, or anything like that. Rather, just to say "hey I like this persons writing. Maybe you will" which is a little too involved for making a gigantic post listing the 250 + sites I read pretty much daily (yes I have no life).

As to the top X lists, I agree, get rid of them. I was interested when I first started blogging but then I decided I don't care anymore. My weblog barely gets 5,000 visits a month yet thats fine by me. At this point I don't put enough effort into it to warrant more than that. Really though, the metrics are useless. They're skewed. A "retarded slashdot" if you will.

Thanks for writing this Shelly. Deep reading for tonight

42

As a white male let me just say:

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Also, clean thinking well expressed - nice job. And I agree.

2nd thoughts: this is a common phenomenon, roughly analogous to "brands", and fueled by network effects: people converge on something, whether not is a good approximation of the "truth", or best [ignoring for a moment that perhaps "truth" cannot even be captured in a single thing but must be derived from a variety of things].

So — how, how, how do we generate a rewarding mechanism that takes advantage of the richness of diversity and provides the reader the rewards thereof?

cheers

43
dave rogers - 6:04 am 3/17/2005

Don't worry about it, Eric! The web is inherently self-correcting! I'm sure someone will be along shortly to "fact-check our asses" and all will be well. The Really Smart Peopleâ„¢ of the internet all tell us that. And since it's, like, emergent, then it's cool. You know, like smart mobs. You guys really need to try this Kool-Aid! It's great. It replaces all one's precious bodily fluids!

44
Karl - 7:43 am 3/17/2005

Clay Shirky's "Power Laws, Weblogs, and Inequality" is still the definitive piece on all this:
http://shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.html

It essentially agrees with what you're saying here Shelley.

The popularity lists are especially troublesome and self-reinforcing but I gotta agree with many in this thread - I think for many people, blogrolls still are a way to discover other blogs. So I'm hesitant to remove mine. I want people who are reading my writing to see you and Dave there for example. I don't have a chance to reference you regularly, but I read you regularly and I like sharing it with the world in some way.

The backlash over the Levy article is just stupid. Did any of these folks send him an email I wonder? I have real trouble with people telling others to shut up about something. Always bothers me.

45

Hmm. I don't think the solution is to tear down the existing power-structure. I'd rather see an alternative way of finding new cool stuff to read in the morning - I'm just not smart enough to figure out what that new way is. The cool thing about the 'net is that it allows us to route around damage if we can figure out the tools to make alternate connections.

46

Hmmm, most of the blogs I read I found while exploring the blogrolls of others…and many of those sites don't link directly to other blogs, they link to static webpages of which they are discussing. So, without blogrolls, I don't know how I would have found most of the blogs that I do read.

47
Doug - 1:12 pm 3/17/2005

So… yesterday I was going to post a comment to the effect of "who really cares about the Technorati 100?" I've never looked at it, and I don't know of anyone who has. Don't let someone else make the rules. Define "success" in your own terms. Yadda yadda…

Then today I found the blogs search feature on Amazon's A9 search engine. Amazon says that they search "over three hundred of the most influential English language blogs". Aaargh!

48
Isofarro - 1:30 pm 3/17/2005

Shelley: "My preference would be to lose the ‘top’ lists and not have any lists at all."

I agree, for the sole reason that there isn't one "blogging community". People don't blog because they want to be part of one big blogging community (I know I don't). I blog because there are topics that interest me, and I want to talk about it and read about it, and share the knowledge.

As you rightly point out, biggest noise is no measure of authority. Blogrolls make no sense, they merely amplify the self-congratulatory group of loud-mouths at the expense of the quiet truth.

49

I'm coming to this dialogue late, but what the hell:

The Technorati/NZBear/etc. Top 100 lists are boring - same old, same old for all the years I've been reading blogs. So I ignore them.

What I do pay attention to are blogrolls. As several people have noted here, that's how I've found many of the blogs that interest me most.

And I'd never remove my blogroll. It started small and grows slowly. My blog topic is "what it's really like to get older," and my "Older Bloggers" list is carefully selected: each blogger must be at least 50 years old; post at least once a week; be relatively easy to read and navigate; and (admittedly subjective) must engage me - tell me something I didn't know before; make me think. Other than that, I don't care what the topic is - well, except I mostly avoid blogs about blogs.

I consider the list recommendations to my readers - blogs I believe will be of interest to them. You won't find any of those white male bloggers because, as you point out, they talk and link only to each other. I don't learn anything new from them…

50
Steve S - 7:57 pm 3/17/2005

Yes, also late to this conversation but here goes.

Keep the blogrolls; they are good reference points.

As for the powers that are inherently keeping their power, one way to go around it is just that "go around it". Redefine the measure. Instead of ranking by links go with a level of engagement.

Some people don't read your blog. For whatever reason, these are unengaged.

Some people do, there are partially engaged.

Some people not only do but then take part with a comment or an email, these are actively engaged.

This gets us something like the effect of relevance that you calculate Shelley but this I think could be done more simply.

With a digital identity (enabled as part of the RSS reader)(in its simplest form today, your email address) when you read and mark as read a posting, the transaction in the reader would leave a mark on
the blog for the writer to know that "Steve was here and read this at 3/17/05, 8:53 PM". If the reader chooses to make a comment, they would
still click through to the posting and do so.

No change in user action. But more information is passed as part of the normal transaction.

As more and more blog readers are doing their thing with Bloglines and RSS Readers, the statistics available today (page hits, etc.) become less accurate in determining the readership community.

The engagement model would restore that accuracy in a clean and simple way.

Now the work will be to engage the RSS Reader developer folks and Bloglines developer folks to buy into it so that it can be done, then of course on the blog tool side, enabling the Bloggers, WordPress, etc. tools to accept the comment accordingly.

My two cents.

51
Anonymous - 4:44 am 3/18/2005

Shelly wrote:

If the next time most major corporate boards got
together the members stood up and said, “I am white,
and I am male!�, would you support this?

If I really saw this, I would probably think that they were doing some kind of 'anti-discrimination consciousness-raising' exercise. Whether I support such a thing might depend on whether it really fights discrimination, or just puts up a nice pretty front, or even promotes discrimination in the name of anti-discrimination. Hard to tell from just that one yell.

52
Mel - 3:42 pm 3/18/2005

One of the best responses to the MSNBC article I've seen is Alternet's "Ten Reasons for Too Few Women Bloggers" by Chris Nolan:
http://www.alternet.org/story/21516/

53
Karl - 6:50 pm 3/18/2005

All these articles are technically wrong. There are more women bloggers than men.

It's the sad popularity link fest that obscures that from the casual observer. Shelley consistantly nails that as the cause for anger - and she's right.

54
David - 8:14 am 3/19/2005

I've always had a problem with "Blogroll". It's too close to "Bog roll", which, in the UK, is something you wipe your arse (ass) with.

55
PZ Myers - 9:02 am 3/19/2005

I do think your blogroll idea is going to meet with a lot of resistance. I do get new sites from blogrolls, and it is a part of a site's identity, that cloud of other pages that they associate with, and I'd hate to see it go. I think your complaint is really more appropriately directed towards people who have these short, dead blogrolls that are little more than nods of approval towards the Usual Suspects of weblogging. People have mentioned bloglines, and I build my blogroll semi-dynamically from my newsreader's opml file — in those cases, the blogroll really does reflect what we are regularly reading.

Two other points: one of the ways I use other site's blogrolls is to help figure out whether I'd like to dig deeper. If you see LGF and the Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler linked, don't you think that says something different than if they are linking to Body & Soul?

Another is that whether we like them or not, those damned popularity lists exist. If you retreat from them, if you say you aren't going to play that game, then you've handed victory to the people who do think they are important. You've volunteered to be invisible. And I think that means you've lost the right to protest when some clueless A-lister asks where all the women are, or starts drawing conclusions about the irrelevance of women.

56

Static blogrolls are effective jump lists when I use my Nokia 9500 to click around places to visit. They're fast and that means they're cheaper to use than summaries coming via HTML maill. They're also familiar information architecture for newbies. When I train a class of teenagers to become new bloggers, they're often very interested in an easy way to click around to content written by friends. I don't see a work-around–they need a link list. Like webrings of last century, links connect communities. I don't believe you want to kill linkages. Yet that's part of the message that comes through my aggie when I read your take on things. (BTW, I'm gender-neutral. My name goes both ways with readers.)

57
wes - 6:39 am 3/21/2005

have you tried http://www.blogdex.net, it only gives you the site people are link too not what they are saying about them, so if new soties is popular you only see the storie not peoples comments on it so you come to it clean.

58

I'm surprised there hasn't been a single mention of Google PageRank in the debate over killing blogrolls.

If people who value diversity kill their blogrolls, they're handing more power to those of us who use them. The people you would have linked to fall further down in the results on Google, losing new readers who often are not reading weblogs at all.

A blogroll link on a weblog's home page bestows considerably more PageRank than links in weblog entries, because those scroll off the high-rank home page into the lower-ranked archives.

Personally, I think you'd be better off using blogrolls to promote new, diverse voices in weblogging.

I've been using mine for several years to help give some attention to local blogs in North Florida, and I think it has made a difference in developing a community.

Also, when you're a new blogger toiling in obscurity, a link on a well-trafficked site's blogroll is a nice bit of encouragement.

59

Well, let's just say that I disagree - you can read my response here:

Ranking response

If you want to pretend that blogrolls, popularity lists (et.al.) don't exist, that's fine. If you want to claim that they hurt people, then you are engaging in something I can only call stupidity. Sorry - I call them the way I see them.

60

I've written a belated post of my own:

"Blogging Beyond the Men's Club", or, the Oligarchy Perceived

I don't think it's about blogrolls - again, that's just an instance of the clubbiness - removing it, even if that were possible, wouldn't affect the underlying problem.

61
shelleyp - 10:08 am 3/21/2005

Rogers, I agree about the power of links to promote. Hopefully the links in my writing send a little traffic to folks, and the sidebar links for commenters also send a little Google juice.

(There's that phrase again: Google juice. Just can't use it the same way, anymore.)

I agree with the positive effects of blogrolls. But one of the negative effects is that they do lead to 'top' lists and top lists do imply both influence and authority.

James, good! I'm glad you disagree. But it's "Shell-E-y". And while comment spam impacts on us individually, ranking impacts on the community as a whole. And that's the focus of this writing.

Seth, your point is good, as is your post.

What's disturbed me the most about this go around on this topic is people who are talking now about 'networking'. What is networking in weblogging? Asking for links from A-listers. That's an awful lot of power we're giving to a very few people.

62

I don't know about you, but I don't wander around the blogosphere asking for (or expecting) links. I post what I want, on topics I find to be of interest to me. If people link to me, fine - it means they found something to be of interest (positive or negative). If they don't, so what?

What power to "A-Listers" have? Only the power that you assign to them. In the meantime, removing trackbacks and blogrolls merely isolates you over in a less well visited corner.

63
shelleyp - 11:15 am 3/21/2005

How am I isolated by not having trackback or blogrolls, James? If I seem to give too much power to the A-listers, you give too much power to the technology.

I don't follow blogrolls and haven't for a couple of years now. Yet I've managed to find several new weblogs from links within posts that people have written; and from following URLs of people who have left comments here.

As for not having trackback–I provide Bloglines and Technorati cosmos links for each post, in the sidebar. This is, effectively the same thing as trackback. Well, at least, as people are using it. And then folks are also welcome to add a link to relevant writings here in the comments.

Finally, I do one thing different from most folks in that I publish the commenters URL when I post the recent comments in the sidebar. This gives folks yet another way of getting Google juice. I call it my self-publishing, rolling blogroll.

If we could get something like tagback going, we could even designate multi-participant conversations.

The only way I'm isolated is if I stop reading everyone, and stop allowing comments. Basically, that I lose interest in communicating.

64

Well, then I really am baffled by your issues with blogrolls and trackbacks. If technorati (et. al.) tags are the same thing, then all you've done is swap one devil for another. I also fail to see how I "give too much power to the technology". Technology is neither good nor evil; it just is. The purposes one puts technology to are a different matter entirely

65

Thanks, Shelley.

Folks, all of civilization works only because people believe in it. Society is not a physical law. The A-list has the power we give it in the same way that any form of social arrangement has the power "we" give it. At some point, if many, many, other people are giving it power, it becomes untenable to simply disbelieve it (one typically won't get very far disbelieving in the United States government). The oft-voiced cliche about power-because-believe-in-it is usually almost a tautology, not a profundity.

The "hurting us" debate is whether blogrolls and trackbacks are concentrators or diversifiers. My take is that either way, the effect is small compared to the basic oligarchy structure problem.
I see the basic idea, that there's an oligarchy, if we somehow cut down ways by which the oligarchy pats/backscratches/jerks itself, then they won't be as powerful. I'm just dubious about whether something is affecting manifestations rather than causes.

66

While I agree with much of what you are saying - in particular the fact that most of the a-list male bloggers just link to each other.

I'd also like to add the Truth Laid Bear, in addition to being really vulgar expression of status mongering, is problematic for it's contrived blogrolls (i.e, if you join one of the two - liberal or republican - blogrolls you must post the whole blogroll on your site, thus creating artificial status for each and every person on that list - including your own blog). A blogger who only has an audience of five appears to have 250 inbound links thanks to the TLB auto-blogroll system.

But I must disagree, strongly, on this point:

"Rarely do people discover new webloggers through blogrolls"

"People"?

I can understand if this is your own personal opinion but I think it's misguided to suggest (by the use of the word "people") that you have access to the consciousness of the 9+ million bloggers out there. When I read it it appeared to be a bit of dramatic flourish that, unfortunately, a few other bloggers (and, in particular, 'Feministe') seem to have accepted wholecloth (without, apparently, questioning the logic for a moment). It's not your fault that a few bloggers who admire you would follow your words unquestioningly. That's unfortunate - both for you and for them. We all need to be challenged. We cannot be correct on all counts. Without challenge, those with status become nothing more than vulgar tyrants making making pronouncements and declarations based on nothing more than the hot air that eminates from their precious asses.

I personally have found most of the blogs I like via blogs I'm familiar with. I look at a blogroll like I look at somebody's bookcase or magazine pile. What does this person like? What are they reading? What inspires them? What are their diversions?

A few of the really unique blogs I've found have just as interesting blogrolls. And through those blogrolls I've discovered worlds within worlds.

To be honest, the blogs I've read that don't have blogrolls appear to be doing something not disimilar to traditional media and I find a blog without a blogroll says ME ME ME far more so than one that points to other voices.

And I have noticed that the more established a blogger gets the less they really have to rely on "community" and so what do they do but ditch the blogroll. Or so it would seem.

Blogs, for me, are still very much about communities.

67

I have to admit that I invariably cruised other people’s blogrolls for more trails to explore rang true with me. I found this blog in the midst of a blog roll exploration, recovering from the latest essay I read (Happy Birthday Betsey Pearl at http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=2235 — read it and you will see why I'm recovering).

Anyway, I find blogrolls useful and enjoyable, and without them I'd have never found this site.

68
Shelley - 11:03 pm 5/5/2005

Ask yourselves something though — do you expect people on a blogroll to reflect that person's approval and interest? Do we then blogroll only people we like and approve of? Or do we blogroll all people — even the ones we dislike, but read obsessively?

All I've read recently is like linking to like–just because we agree with the 'like' doesn't make it diverse.

There are big circles of power, and small ones…but they're still circles.

69
Mr. Kong - 11:17 pm 5/5/2005

Sorry to hop into this in mid-debate…

As a small-time backwoods unknown blogger, I appreciate your concern about the negative impact of the static immutable blogroll. But I have been a member of online "communities" for a long time, and unfortunately, links, lists, top-100s, ranking, hit-counts, hit-fishing, and popularity have been the way of the internet for as long as I can remember. Heck, it's what search engines are all about.

All I can say in response to this is that there are a lot of ways other than lists and rankings to find good blogs. I have found all of the blogs I enjoy reading either through word of mouth or through links on other blogs (either in posts or in blogrolls). Thus, it's my experience that blogrolling hasn't hurt me or the authors of the blogs I read. I managed to find them without the aid or impediment of lists, ecosystems, etc. And they're certainly not all "big-time" list-topping blogs, either.

In short, I think the total removal of blogrolls is perhaps a bit drastic. They can be a useful connectivity tool, and there are always other ways of getting around elitism problems.

70
asfo_del - 1:09 am 5/6/2005

Blogrolls are the one and only thing that creates community in the blogs world. If they did not exist, I would not be aware that three quarters of the blogs I read regularly existed. I have no interest whatsoever in A-list blogs — I don't even know which ones they are — nor in rankings. Nor do I know how bloglines works. I only recently found out Technorati exists. I'm not interested in its rankings, which are not accurate anyway, but it's another way of letting me know what blogs are out there. If they link to me, cahnces are I'm interested in them. You're so plugged into all this technical stuff that you would leave the rest of us out in the cold, wondering how to find out about other blogs. Frankly, I don't even know what you're talking about because I'm so far outside of the issues that are troubling you. Being so far outside, I should be your dream. Yet the solution you propose would totally ruin my enjoyment of blogs.

71
Kristjan Wager - 2:35 am 5/6/2005

As so many others, I prefer blogrolls to stay, as I use them to find new (to me) blogs. It's true that I more often find new blogs through links in posts, but that doesn't mean that blogrolls doesn't serve a purpose. Also, as PZ said up thread, a blogroll allows visitors to see where on the spectrum you belong.

A solution could be to make the blogroll on a separate page, so it isn't on the front page. This would give in-bedded links more weight.

72
Phil - 8:42 am 5/6/2005

do you expect people on a blogroll to reflect that person’s approval and interest?

Well, er, yes. Since RSS, blogrolls don't have a practical &