July 9th, 2007

I haven't had a chance to see Sicko yet. It's showing on only three screens in the entire area, and I'm waiting for it to hit a theater near us.

I've been reading, with interest, the views of the movie. I have no doubt, as some people have stated, that Michael Moore 'staged' events and used emotion to make his point. He makes no apologies; at a minimum, his use of such has started an overdue and desperately needed debate on health care in this country.

I'm disappointed in our candidates for President. Of all of them, only Kucinich has the courage to defy corporate inspired 'fear' of socialized medicine to call for what's really needed. Edwards push to have health insurance carriers devote more of a percentage of profits to health care is nothing more than a sop to the issue. Other options, such as those similar to Romney's poorly designed and ill thought out health care initiative in Massachusetts, are only designed to add more money to the coffers of the private health insurance companies, as well as prevent the burden of caring the uninsured from falling to the hospitals and doctors, rather than extend health care to all.

Moore's choice of highlighting the troubles for those already covered by health insurance was ingenious. If he had focused on the 'bums', those of us who don't have health insurance, he would have played into the conservative agenda in that people can get insurance if they only work for it. What Moore has done is show that it doesn't matter if people have insurance or not, the people in our country are not getting the care they need.

Of course, once the movie released, we heard all the opinion pieces about how systems in Canada, the UK, and elsewhere, where health care is provided for all, have severe failings and how the people of these countries would really much rather have our system. Isn't that what David Gratzer said, in the Wall Street Journal?

Under the weight of demographic shifts and strained by the limits of command-and-control economics, government-run health systems have turned out to be less than utopian. The stories are the same: dirty hospitals, poor standards and difficulty accessing modern drugs and tests.

Of course, other experts debate his statements, and we go back and forth, not sure what is the truth.

Times have changed, though, and we're no longer dependent on having to listen to what one expert says to another. If I don't think weblogging is a good replacement for traditional journalism, it does provide a way, in circumstances such as these, for us to talk to each other. To hear what each other says on personal issues such as health care, and how we, personally, feel the health care system in our respective countries cares for ourselves, our families and friends.

Hello, I'm Shelley. I live in St. Louis, Missouri, in the US. I currently do not have health insurance. My income is erratic and I can't always count on having the $400.00 dollar a month to pay the premium.

Has not having health insurance changed my lifestyle? Oh, very much so. Because of two bad falls during hikes in the last four years, where I hurt both my back and my ankle, I'm wary now of hiking in more challenging terrain. If I were to fall now and break a bone or tear ligaments, I couldn't afford to have such treated.

It's hot to walk in the city, but I haven't hiked much in the country this summer. I've been bitten by ticks every summer and I've had bad reactions every year; reactions that have gotten worse. I can't afford to take the chance to get bit by ticks again this year and have the allergic reaction become worse. Additionally, my state has put out a warning for a significant increase in disease bearing ticks this year. If I can't afford an allergic reaction, I certainly can't afford Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever.

As for the rest of my life, well, I try to eat well, get plenty of sleep, and walk when the temperatures hit below the 70s at night. I'm looking forward to the fall when I can walk in the country again.

Others of my family and friends do have insurance.

I have a close female relative who had surgery for colon cancer a year ago last November. She went through chemo, but still has a 72% chance of cancer re-occurring. That doesn't mean she'll die, just that she needs to be more aware and have more regular tests and be ready to aggressively attack the cancer if, when, it re-occurs.

One such test is a colonoscopy. Her ontologist wanted her to have another one, but when she talked to the insurance company, they stated that the only time they authorize a colonoscopy less than two years after the previous is if the person is a 'high risk' for colon cancer. My relative's doctor hit the roof. If previous colon cancer and a 72% chance of re-occurrence is not considered 'high risk', what is?

I have another friend who has just gone through a rather extensive, over 50 physical. His plan is focused more on covering high hospital expenses than day to day care or preventative care such as physicals. He's had the blood work, the high blood pressure check, and the cholesterol check, which was high. He had a stress test and a colonoscopy. So far, he's had to pay 1200.00 and counting out of his own pocket for these 'routine' physical tests.

I had a friend in Boston whose father had significant problems with dementia. The nursing home where he was placed was a decent place, but costly. Her father couldn't get help to pay for the place because he had too much money. What did he have? He had a house. She had to sell the house and exhaust his income just so that he was 'poor' enough to get the care he needed.

When I have had insurance, I've had doctors who are only allowed 15 minutes with each patient; I've had surgery on an out-patient basis, because I'd have to pay thousands if I stayed overnight; and I had one doctor who wanted to prescribe Xanax as a sort of all purpose cure all. Since she was my 'assigned' physician, I couldn't see anyone else without going through a lot of hassle, so I didn't go back. I guess I didn't die, so whatever it was I had wasn't terminal.

I've also had excellent doctors who have treated me with humor, patience, and with a genuine desire to see me healthy. Too bad I can't get through the door to see most of them without having insurance.

Would I switch what I have for what people have in Canada, Germany, France, Australia, or the UK? Absolutely.

So, who are you, where do you live, and if you're not in the States, would you rather be sick here? Or in your own country?

The Michael Moore Wolf Blitzer smackdown at RawStory.

There's a reason I asked what I did in this post. Because of what I'm reading in the mainstream media contradicts what I've heard from webloggers who live in other countries.

Comments
1

First Live Music and now this! You're really trying to fire folks up!

I absolutely agree with this post as well. There's also an unconscious benefit to national healthcare that people don't discuss - the benefit of not worrying about it. I lived in Canada during high school and many of my friends from high school own their own businesses. They aren't afraid to walk out the door when they are treated bad and they don't have to worry about benefits when starting their own business.

I'd be happy to pay more taxes for that kind of freedom. Ironic, huh?

2
ben - 4:07 pm 7/9/2007

In all seriousness, if anyone in my family contracted something chronic I'd strongly consider moving the family to a country where there was universal health care. I write software for a living so there's no need for us to bankrupt ourselves here in America if we could continue to thrive somewhere else.

3
Phil - 4:16 pm 7/9/2007

"The stories are the same: dirty hospitals, poor standards and difficulty accessing modern drugs and tests."

This would be hypocritical even if it were true - he's implicitly comparing the grotty old NHS with paid-for healthcare in the US, where the honest comparison would be to go out and see what you can get if you pay your state and federal taxes and no more. ("Modern drugs and tests" out the wazoo, no doubt.) More importantly, it's not even true, as a recently-hospitalised British blogger attests here.

4
Phil - 4:20 pm 7/9/2007

Her father couldn't get help to pay for the place because he had too much money. What did he have? He had a house. She had to sell the house and exhaust his income just so that he was 'poor' enough to get the care he needed.

That, on the other hand, is exactly the same here in England - although not in Scotland, since devolution. They don't pay university tuition fees up there, either. Damn pinkoes.

5
Sophie - 4:42 pm 7/9/2007

Hello, I live in France and I knew before this post about the fact you were going without health insurance, which seems astonishing seen from here. I thought the US were the richest country in the world or something… I guess there are other priorities, like invading countries.

Of course our politicians are trying to destroy our system and privatize it, but, until they do, it works. It is not perfect, of course could be better (focusing more on prevention than treatment-only), but I know two women who were treated for breast cancer and the quality of care in middle-sized hospital is excellent, and more and more programs try to detect cancers early.

Even the poor who don't contribute to social security can get care, when GPs are not stupid enough to refuse them…

UK citizens like to retire here to enjoy this system.

Elderly care is another subject, the medical side is rather good, but the daily caring for dependant people is lacking and the prices are very high, not covered by social security, this can lead to cases similar to the one you mention.

I contribute about $32 a month to social security, my employer contributes $570… That's why they moan about the fact that work is too expensive for companies here I guess.

Once an economic journalist from a national radio with a love for US-style economics had a big health problem (car crash or heart failure, I don't remember). When he came back on the waves, his first words were to thank all the people in the public hospital who saved his life, and say that the social security system should be defended as it was very good. It only took him a few months to go back to his usual wails about reform and privatization, though…

6

I guess I have low expectations, but I kind of like Edwards' plan. Kucinich's plan sounds to me like a fantasy that will never actually happen, akin to Iraqis greeting us with flowers. Instead of exciting me, it just annoys me that he's wasting my time with something that clearly won't happen. Edwards' plan doesn't fix everything right away, but it seems to put us on a better road, and I'd much rather be on a better road than standing on this one talking about the best road.

7
Dave - 5:00 pm 7/9/2007

When I got in accident in San Fran the people at the hospital asked for my credit card. When I visit a hospital in Canada they ask for my health card. Sure we have some waiting lists but since Ièm not rolling in the dollars I will take my imperfect Canadian system.

8
Noah Slater - 5:04 pm 7/9/2007

I live in York, UK and am proud to say that I would prefer to need healthcare in the UK than any other country. From what I've heard, we have one of the most advanced and socially accessible systems in the world.

Most companies suffer from mismanagement and lack of resources - with the possible the exception of Japan (where you can set your clock by the trains they are so punctual and well organised) I would wager that every healthcare system in the world suffers from these problems - private or not.

I pay substantially more in income tax for the benefit of knowing that any treatment I need would free - but this is a more than fair trade-off for me. I know I can afford to pay X% more than I will ever use and feel socially proud to do so knowing that this helps pay for treatments and care for other individuals who would be vulnerable otherwise,

As an aside, Sophie, technically the US is economically bankrupt - there are countries with a much stronger economy, such as Norway.

9
Audrey - 5:52 pm 7/9/2007

I haven't had health insurance for any length of time since college. Paying for everything out of pocket runs me $1-2K/year, and that's despite being young and without any major health problems. It might be worse, but the local medical school runs a sliding scale neighborhood clinic where they're surprisingly friendly (those sorts of services for the low income are usually pretty surly, in my experience).

My boyfriend developed significant asthma problems while unemployed last year, but were traveling in Germany at the time. I am so grateful that if it had to happen, we were somewhere with decent healthcare services. The whole testing and treatment routine only came to about 300 Euros (not sure what that would be at last year's exchange rate, but I would expect to pay at least $1K for a similar set of services in the US, and I know it worked out to far less for us). And the asthma medications are so much cheaper there! At least a third of the price. He had to get by with just a single rescue inhaler for months after we got back, until finally starting a job with health insurance again this spring.

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Shelley - 8:14 pm 7/9/2007

Thanks to all for sharing. So far, I'm not necessarily hearing anything that surprises me. I doubt it would surprise even those people who are decrying Moore's message.

It saddens me, though, because what you're saying is not what we're hearing in the news.

As for the prescriptions, the Congress just voted down our ability to buy drugs from other countries where getting such would be cheaper. Incredibly disappointing that was.

Scott, all you have to do is take a look at what's happening in Massachusetts to see how this is not working well. When you have a people who can barely afford paying for a home, food, necessary transportation, when we start adding on hundreds of dollars of required health insurance, what gives then?

11
Rebecca - 8:54 pm 7/9/2007

I do understand that healthcare in America needs serious improvement, but I do wonder if universal healthcare is the final answer? I wonder if hospitals should be forced to open their financial books to independent auditors to see where and how they can do their jobs better, and more effectively. I am sure that like in more industries, there is always some room for improvement. But do we ever see that happening?

12
madame l. - 3:15 am 7/10/2007

hi shelley,

i live, as you know, in france. when i watch someone like loren feldman from 1938 media do a stupid vidcast running down michael moore and making fun of france and asking people where they would rather be, france or "america" if they got sick, it makes my blood boil. i seriously doubt he's ever set foot outside of ny state.

i think i posted this before but you can watch SiCKO at richard bluestein's insane films. it's posted with permission and in two parts.

my mother was born in boston and was on blue cross blue shield major medical from the day she was born. for 50 years she had the same number. the best health insurance money could buy, supposedly. when she got ill they threw her off. my husband and i actually got into an argument about this because he could not believe this could actually happen. well, it did. the moment she got really ill they found some reason to disqualify her. after 50 years of never missing a payment. the best health insurance money could buy. yeah. she died, denied a kidney transplant. upper middle class tax paying american who had bc/bs from the day she was born.

i suggest everybody watch the film. i know michael moore can be annoying and manipulative but all that is So beside the point. what kind of humans have americans allowed themselves to become? a lot of these people in power have the balls to call themselves christians. it makes me puke. i am embarrassed to be an american and can't wait until i am a citizen of the EU, although i already enjoy free health care. and to answer loren feldman's question: if i got sick in america i would fly back to france to be treated. like any human being with any sense would.

this is not just about all the people who have no medical insurance. this is also about the power the insurers have and their ability to do whatever the fuck they want. all in the name of profit. unbelievable. meanwhile, let's watch ridiculous mcdonna jumping up and down to save the earth. people are fucked.

and my kids are covered in both the uk and in france. dental, eyes, everything. yeah spooky spooky socialized medicine. americans live in fear and have lost their sense of power, hypnotized by the msm. and to those that say "if you don't like it here you should leave", i did.

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Phil - 3:56 am 7/10/2007

my kids are covered in both the uk and in france. dental, eyes, everything. yeah spooky spooky socialized medicine.

But it's not all rosy. 18 years of Thatcher and 10 of Blair have put some big coverage holes in the NHS - dental and eye care for adults (pensioners and pregnant women excepted) are mostly private these days.

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Aruni - 10:32 am 7/10/2007

I live in Texas which apparently has one of the worst healthcare coverage rates in the country…especially for children. They have been trying to improve this with very low cost insurance for kids. I was born in another country but I have to say I have not experienced the need for serious medical care in another country. We have insurance through my husband's employer…I can't imagine going without with little kids. Overall my experience with medical issues has not been bad here in the US and in Texas.

There has to be some sort of mix between socializing healthcare completely and allowing doctors to make money to cover their education debt and live a reasonable lifestyle. Afterall we do live in a capitalist society. Doctors spend a lot of their time studying and usually don't end getting a job that makes money until early to mid 30's. Many good doctors are getting discouraged at the whole healthcare system as well mostly because health insurance companies cut their rates down significantly. Some doctors have refused to take health insurance and just accept cash only. Medical malpractice insurance can run from $10K to $50K per month I think depending on your specialty.

There needs to be change and people who need care should get care even if that means raising taxes. It's a privilege to have the money to help society IMHO. However, I have a hard time with my tax money going to people who smoke or who are obese. Moderation in all things. There is enough information out there on the negative effects of smoking and eating McDonald's everyday (Supersize Me). We recently went to San Antonio to Sea World and I have to say that I think every 3rd person/child was massively obese and you can just see "will be in a hospital soon" signs all over them. Somehow the message of don't eat junk food is not getting to the lower income folks and/or they don't care and/or they are making substandard decisions based on their life situation. I think we need to figure out the obesity epidemic quickly or our healthcare system will be so overburdened that they won't be able to spend time on other issues of research, etc.

The one great thing about America is there is generally more cutting edge research and testing going on here than anywhere else…but I see that changing given Bush's stance on stem cell research.

Better go or I'll end up typing something I might regret. :-)

15
Elaine - 10:44 am 7/10/2007

I've mentioned this before: I got married because my then-boyfriend needed his wisdom teeth out, my job was the one with health insurance, and there wasn't any other way to get him covered. That was 6 years ago. The interaction of health insurance with marriage in this country is just as troubling as the interaction with employment. (When my inlaws got back together years ago, they didn't get remarried in part because it was cheaper for them to have health insurance separately!)

I've been very lucky: I was uninsured for about a year and a half about 10 years ago, when I was in my early 20s and fairly healthy. My one serious injury in that time happened at work, so it was covered by L and I. (worker's comp, etc.) Since 1998, I've had health insurance, mostly with Group Health. I hated their Tacoma clinic, where I saw a different provider every single time I went.

But after we moved to Olympia, until fairly recently, I had an amazing primary provider: friendly, thoughtful, considerate, and helpful. When I found out she was leaving for a job in California, I actually started crying.

I've had physical therapy and counseling; C had a lymph node out a couple of years ago. We both wear glasses. And the care hasn't been perfect, but it's pretty good. I suppose it helps that Group Health is a nonprofit.

On the other hand, I pay a sizable chunk of my paycheck to have that level of security…and we have the least expensive plan offered through my employer. When I first got my own insurance, it was entirely paid by my then-employer; at the the college, it went up steadily over 6 years, but was kept reasonable to some extent by union bargaining. IIRC, coming from there to here it went up by 3 or 4 times; it was one of the things I calculated when bargaining for a higher salary.

And I hate that! I hate that having health care is tied to employment and marriage and things that have nothing to do with being healthy or not. I'm fairly ignorant of the systems in other countries, but there has to be something better than this.

(Re Kucinich: I think I'm with Scott.)

PS: your preview doesn't like the ampersand.

16
Shelley - 11:01 am 7/10/2007

madame L, I thought you'd probably say something on the French system, and it does sound amazing. I've also heard it's under threat of being privatized, as Canada's system is, and part of the UKs (per Phil).

Aruni, you'll find that many of the poor people eat MacDonald's because they can't afford to eat healthy. A bag of fruit and vegetables last week cost me $80.00. It wasn't a big bag, and supposedly most of the items were 'in season'. I agree that obesity is a problem in this country, but what we need is more help from the medical community to fight this, rather than less access to medicine.

Elaine, your point about health coverage and marriage and jobs is an excellent one. Especially about jobs. I know of people who have stayed with jobs because of health insurance and existing conditions. If we had a universal system, where you worked and who you married would be moot.

I know that the Edwards supporters aren't going to be happy with my dig at him, but I am disappointed in his health care plan. It's little different than Romney's in Massachusetts except for making companies somewhat more accountable, and decreasing some of the profits the health care companies receive. The point is, when there are people in the middle making a profit, that money is not going to giving care.

17
Shelley - 11:06 am 7/10/2007

There's one other issue in this:

If there were one global plan, there would be no specialized treatment options for the rich, as compared to none for the poor. Care would be based on need, not wealth.

If we have the multi-company system we have today, but then add a specialized health care program for the 'rest of the folks', their health care card becomes a form of social stigma and a way for health care professionals, especially hospitals, to adjust the type of care given.

One health care card, one help care program, means that doctors and hospitals can focus only on understanding the requirements of the one plan, and how to ensure people get the best care. Many plans now require that hospitals and doctors hire people just to address the many differences and quirks between companies.

More importantly, though, we're in danger of fostering an even stronger class system than we already have. The 'subsidized' health care card will socially mark a person every time they go to get care.

Is this really what we want for the future of health care in this country? That's Edwards plan.

18
Aruni - 11:42 am 7/10/2007

Hi Shelley - yes we need involvement from the medical community but we also need involvement from schools and parents to educate children on health and eating properly. I'm not sure where you shop but $80 for a bag of fruits and veggies sounds pretty expensive to me. We can do a weeks worth of shopping for a family of 4 for around $100 to $150. The veggies and fruits are the cheapest things on the list…but that's if you are not buying organic. From a recent grocery list from a trip to HEB:

2.5 lbs bing cherries $7.59
1 canteloupe $0.99
2.5 lbs organic Fuji apples $7.33
7 med size Dole bananas $0.93
2 lbs seedless grapes $2.02
I think it's probably like $1.35 per lb of broccoli crowns

What did you think about WalMart's $5 perscription offer? http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=546834&fromPageCatId=5431. I think it's a great idea. I agree that perscription drugs here are massively over-priced…probably to cover the marketing campaigns (i.e. don't use XXX if you are YYY, consult your doctor if ZZZ) of happy people using drugs.

You can definitely eat healthier than McDonald's (agree that it might be a bit more expensive) if you know how and what to shop for and you don't eat a ton of food at each sitting. Nowadays the serving size for kids is what an adult size would have been 20 years ago!

Now, I'm hungry…gotta head to the kitchen to make myself a sandwhich and have some fruit. :-)

19
Doug Alder - 3:42 pm 7/10/2007

Aruni

There has to be some sort of mix between socializing healthcare completely and allowing doctors to make money to cover their education debt and live a reasonable lifestyle. Afterall we do live in a capitalist society. Doctors spend a lot of their time studying and usually don't end getting a job that makes money until early to mid 30's.

This is a traditional red herring put out by those opposed to socialized medicine and you shouldn't fall for it. Doctor's in Canada make very good livings and are quite able to pay back their education expenses (indeed many provincial governments here are offering some subsidies to doctor's educations if they will volunteer afterwards to server in rural communities).

20
Phil - 4:27 pm 7/10/2007

Doug - yup, doctors over here do OK as well. I'm not sure where the idea that "employed by the state" equals "employed on poverty wages" comes from.

There is such a thing as private medicine over here, incidentally - I think allowing it to continue was part of the deal that enabled the government to set up the health service, 60-odd years ago. If you want to pay a doctor a lot of money to see you straight away and give you a lot of time and attention, you can. But if you don't want to pay anything, the quality of your healthcare won't suffer. Apart from dental work and prescription charges, I've never paid anything for healthcare, and I've got no complaints; it's saved my life a couple of times.

21
James - 9:26 am 7/11/2007

Here's some detail on Australia's system - everyone gets covered by Medicare, which is partially funded by a 1.5% income tax. This covers a wide range of things, but there can be waits for some procedures (in part because states fund the public hospitals, but the federal government funds Medicare). You can also get private health insurance - in fact, above a certain income you get taxed an extra 1.5% if you don't have it. This gives you a choice of provider, and it can cover treatment as a private patient, however there are often out-of-pocket expenses too. The wikipedia article linked above gives a good overview, although it probably isn't that clear to non-locals. Companies paying for private health insurance is unusual, and it's taxed as a fringe benefit.

22
Aruni - 10:15 am 7/11/2007

Doug - you are right…I didn't say that well. In addition to education (which is generally at a much higher cost here in the US) there is also extremely high medical malpractice insurance to pay. I'm a bit biased because both of my parents were/are doctors. They did the bulk of their education overseas and came to the US in the 70's because the US needed/wanted good doctors back then. From what I hear my mom say the medical education overseas was much better than in many places in the US. I've even heard that now when residents are asked questions they google for the answer on their mobile before raising their hands. Crazy! Pretty soon you or I could become a doctor with the help of google. :-)

When my parents divorced in to 80s, my mom had $5,000 and a Datsun to her name. She went to teach at a med school and didn't make much money then. We clipped coupons, we lived frugally…When I went to college she finally went into private practice and started being able to save money when she was in her mid-40s.

There are plusses and minuses to social medicine and capitalistic medicine. The grass may seem greener on the otherside but we have friends/family who live in Europe (who are doctors) and they say sometimes people have to wait days/weeks for regular or even life threatening care.

So I agree with you…there is a need for general care for the general population. Actually, the guy who's blog I discovered this blog from did a post today on this: http://avc.blogs.com/a_vc/2007/07/sicko-due-dilig.html.

By the way, WalMart is selling perscription generic drugs for $4 (I had typed $5) above.

23
Shelley - 10:30 am 7/11/2007

Aruni, that thread you pointed to make little sense in regards to universal health care. Nor does what you're saying.

Malpractice insurance is inflated, as we've found in both Missouri and Illinois. The insurance companies have said that the numbers are high, when they are not, in order to inflate the cost of the insurance. As for payouts, they amount less than one-half of 1 percent of health care costs (see Slate article).

From what I know, most universities pay pretty good for professors. I would say a professor at a medical school makes more than enough to live comfortably. Why your mother didn't, I have no idea.

As for that thread, the assumption, then, is that if all people have equal access to medical care, then medical research will suffer. And that somehow we in the US are leaders in this because, and only because, we've made a decision to allow 18,000 people to die yearly in order to advance the cause of medicine so that the wealthy can get a superior product.

If anything, this demonstrates the necessity of pulling the profit motive out of medical care, because when it's left in, frankly, I don't find any of us worth saving.

24
Shelley - 10:42 am 7/11/2007

Actually, I would say that the myth that private industry and the capitalist way leads to innovation in medical research have been shot down in that comment thread related to the post you point out.

The whole point on this, is people say they've heard something. Or they believe a myth, without checking facts. We're all completely rejecting the idea of universal health care, primarily based on misinformation spread about by the very organizations that benefit from the way things are now.

I hope we do not do a tiered system, such as Australia (thanks James), and as exacted by other countries, because we then promote a class system within the health care environment, which determines that some people are worth saving, the wealthy, some are not, the poor.

No system is perfect, but the system where 18,000 die a year because it's frankly expedient and simpler, and supports the American Way of Life, to me is not something to embrace. And I'm disappointed, bitterly, at the Democratic candidates, who go along with the status quo.

PS Walmarts prescription prices are for a limited set of drugs, only.

25
Aruni - 1:00 pm 7/11/2007

Shelley - to clarify:

+ I agree with taking the profit incentive out so that insurance and drug companies don't continue to run the industry into eventual ruin…

+ My mom did make a reasonable salary in the 80s. She raised us with a healthy respect for managing money. She made more when she got into private practice. It's hard to save as a single mother with 2 kids. You (and others) might be surprised that Asst Professors in certain schools make less than Asst Professors in say the business schools. TT Biz school profs can make $100 to $150K per year in a public institution. In that same institution liberal arts profs can be making $40 to $55K. I was surprised when I found out that info. In business you can get an undergrad degree, work at some place, get a grad school and be making >$500K as an associate at an investment banking company. There are several MBAs making that kind of money with one or two business/finance degrees…I know some of them and I CAN'T believe it. They make more than most Executives and definitely more than most entrepreneurs (myself included).

+ I don't think letting 18,000 people die is acceptable. I also don't think having 50,000 to 100,000+ people die as they do in 3rd world countries is acceptable.

+ Yes, the WalMart program is only for 300 generic drugs…but many of them commonly used. Maybe it's not ideal but it's a start and has really gotten the big drug company's attention. WalMart is doing what it does best: uses it's ungodly amount of purchasing power to push down prices for the end consumer…for better or worse. I know many people hate WalMart but for some reason people continue to shop there.

+ I, too, am not thrilled by the Dem candidates plans for healthcare. Hillary tried to take on healtchare reform under Bill's term but nothing happened.

+ I have not seen Sicko yet either but it has obviously resulted in a lot of conversation about the topic which will hopefully translate into some actions. I saw Moore on the Daily Show last night (not sure if it was a re-run) and he was saying he got bumped off Larry King Live for Paris Hilton to talk about who knows what!!! Now the fact that Paris is more interesting than millions of people without proper healthcare a sign of sickness in this country IMHO.

+ I don't think medical research is tied to capitalism directly. I think the people who do pure research are not usually driven by money or even promises of awards…this is why the Nobel Prize comes with a modest monetary reward (i.e., it's not like winning the lottery)…hardly anyone gets it and if they do it wasn't because their whole life goal was to get it (IMHO) it was to discover something amazing to help the world. However, in a way the funding given to Universities and other research organizations from drug companies, the government, etc. to spend on equipment and hiring student's/PhD's often helps convert what's in the mind of a person into a usable solution that can change the world.

I hope this post makes more sense. Thanks for reading.

Aruni

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Shelley - 7:21 pm 7/11/2007

Aruni, I appreciate you comments, as I do everyone's.

I hope I haven't come across so strong that anyone feels uncomfortable expressing disagreement.

27
jeneane - 8:21 pm 7/11/2007

I am jeneane and I live in atlanta, ga and own my own business. So does my husband. We pay as much for health insurance with BC/BS each month for three of us (two adults, one child) as we do our mortgage. And for that pleasure, we have a $2,000 deductible, and get to pay 30 percent of all remaining costs out of pocket. With our plan six SICK visits per year are covered. The first $500 for prescriptions each year for EACH of us is paid by us. The plan does not cover 'well visits,' known, in a formerly humane era, as preventative care. Surgery for my daughter last year and me this year has left us owing over $6K in hospital and doctor bills, in addition to the monthly premium.

Just this side of the tipping point.

28
Shelley - 9:03 pm 7/11/2007

Jeneane, that's awful. And it explains why so many people have to go bankrupt because of medical bills. I remember you telling me how much you have to pay a month in premiums. It's disgusting that your coverage is so poor compared to what you're having to pay.

Thanks to all those who have contributed to the discussion. Comments are now closed, but you can contact the author of the post directly.