February 23rd, 2007

Dori Smith pointed to a Kottke post where he took on several conferences and their lack of diversity. I find this topic lately to be exhausting, when one considers we've been laboring on this issue for several years. I'd be more sanguine about the lack of women speakers at conferences if most people would at least agree that a more diverse conference, field, profession is a better one. But I don't see it: I see white guys looking around going, "Hey, I dun see no problem".

People like Eric Meyer, who wrote today:

In my personal view, diversity is not of itself important, and I don’t feel that I have anything to address next time around. What’s important is technical expertise, speaking skills, professional stature, brand appropriateness, and marketability. That’s it. That’s always been the alpha and omega of my thinking, and it will continue to be so the next time, and time after that, and the time after that.

You know, Eric has a point: why should we worry about diversity in conferences? Or within technology, as a matter of fact?

After all, the field is gradually heading to being completely male and a mix of asian and white, and that should be good enough, right? After all: people make choices not to be techs.

Of course, the field is designed by white men, and the value system is based on white male values, and the school curriculum for computer science was created by white males, and the guys are really good about giving each other kudos and recommending each other for jobs — not to mention also defining the tests given to job candidates, determining who gets the grants, the awards, the accolades.

I mean, just because women have to work twice as hard for half the recognition, what makes us think that we're being deprived? After all, it's all a matter of choice.

Come to that, why do we have to screw around with standards? I mean, Internet Explorer dominates in the browser market–so let's just code and design for IE, and tell the W3C and that irritating buzzy group the WaSP that thanks, but no thanks, we don't need to have a 'better' way of doing things: all we need is a market-driven way of doing things.

Men drive the tech market. IE drives the browser market. Ipso facto: we don't need women but we do need IE.

But let's now stop there: I don't about anyone else who works with JavaScript and Ajax and stuff, but I'm really tired of blind people being on the internet. I mean, who do they think they are, wanting equal access to all the web pages and applications? Don't they know that because we have to worry about screen readers and magnifiers, we can't create the best web pages and applications?

This counts for all of you damn cripples, too. So what if you're paralyzed and you have to use a keyboard, and can't use a mouse? Whiner babies: why don't you grab a tin can, fill it full of pencils, and plant your butt on the corner and beg for a living–let the rest of us do the web the way we want to–the best way. And isn't that what matters? What the market determines is the best?

That's what Eric says about the A List Apart conference:

…remember that An Event Apart is a web development best practices conference. Our brand promises to bring you the biggest names in the field of standards-oriented design and closely related fields, and to have those people talk about what they see next, to push the envelope just a little further out, to show the audience old things in new ways, and so on. Therefore, it relies on populating the stage with widely known and respected people, on having speakers who are instantly recognizable as relevant to what the attendees do and what they want to learn.

See? It's all about brands, it's all about the market.

Oh, let's not bring in that old chestnut about women making up over half the users on the web, and our combined buying power and all that tedious maundering. I mean, really, why should Eric let something like not having half his client base represented stand in the way of a real kick ass conference on web design. Right? Right?

What’s important is technical expertise, speaking skills, professional stature, brand appropriateness, and marketability. That’s it.

No, what really matters is marketability. Maybe I've been weblogging too long, but it seems to me that a lot of people are doing a lot of crap in the name of 'marketability'. If you want to be self-serving jerks, that's fine with me, but at least be honest about it: don't wrap it in 'marketability' and think it noble.

Where does it end, Eric? Where does one draw the line, and say that we'll let the market determine what's important to this point, but not to that? If we just relax and not 'worry' about diversity at conferences, it makes it so much easier…but why stop there?

The market also tells us that the blind don't matter, the crippled don't matter, the poor certainly don't matter, the gay don't matter, the blacks don't matter, the Hispanics don't matter, the Chinese matter (but only when they're working, not when they're voting)–hell, about the only ones that do matter, Eric, are people like you. And from the comments attached to your post that's about who you'll get at your conference.

Congratulations! I can see your conference is going to be exactly what you want: a great marketing success.

Comments
1
Dori - 10:02 pm 2/23/2007

And what about those folks with mobile devices? As people who write JavaScript/Ajax and sites designed for broadband users, can we say screw them, too?

Not to mention anyone still uses dial-up, or anyone who pays by the byte. Or anyone with a small display.

Damn, this is going to make life really easy for the geeks. Well, some of them, at least.

But what do we know? We're part of the 90% of the world that aren't white middle-class first-world males. I can't imagine why anyone buys tech books with your name or mine on the cover!

2
Jim - 10:10 pm 2/23/2007

Your analogies just don't work.

The reason why homogeneity in browsers is bad is because there are important qualitative differences between browsers. But men and women are equally capable of contributing to the industry. The industry doesn't lose out because there are ideas that only women can have. If anything *you* are being sexist by suggesting that there are.

Likewise with blind people. By building an application that works for sighted people but not blind people, you're actively discriminating. But acknowledging that blind people are a minority and saying "you know what, I don't think it's my job to talk more blind people into becoming developers" is not discrimination.

Quite frankly, I'm sick of seeing this issue pop up annually, and I think you're being really condescending towards other women. The women I know would be horrified to think that men are being encouraged to mollycoddle them.

3
Shelley - 10:19 pm 2/23/2007

And I'm sick to FUCKING DEATH of the assumption being that having more diversity means having a 'weaker' conference or presentation.

How the bloody hell can you push the box or learn ANYTHING NEW, when you only surround yourself with people like yourself? How the BLOODY HELL can men think they can 'read' our minds enough so that they don't have to get our views, our ideas as to web design.

You're sick? THEN HELP BRING ABOUT CHANGE, and stop whining in my comments, taking up my space, and my time.

4
Eric Meyer - 10:30 pm 2/23/2007

I thought about responding to the angry portions of your post, but Tantek said it better than I could have, so I'll just point there.

"Congratulations! I can see your conference is going to be exactly what you want: a great marketing success."

Well, it's kind of necessary for that to be the case, isn't it? Because if it's a marketing failure, the conference will fail, crater my bank account, and endanger my ability to feed my wife and daughter. Not to mention myself. It's an admitted drag that I feel I have to worry about that kind of thing, but I do.

More importantly, why can't a conference be both really good and a marketing success? That's what we're aiming for, after all. And a big part of making it a really good conference is getting the best possible speakers, regardless of their gender, race, orientation, creed, religion, etc., etc. Why is that such a problem?

See also this comment by Tracey, which contains several points worth considering as well.

5
Jim - 10:35 pm 2/23/2007

> How the bloody hell can you push the box or learn ANYTHING NEW, when you only surround yourself with people like yourself?

See, that's the difference between you and I. I don't think of women as being "different". I don't think that the ability to learn from somebody depends on what genitals they have. I didn't realise there were ways in which women can "push the box" that men can't.

Do you actually have examples of genitals being an influencing factor on pushing the box and learning new stuff?

I don't surround myself with "people like me". The people I surround myself with are very diverse. Some of them love Windows. Some of them only use open-source software. Some of them are LISP fanatics. Others are strictly imperative.

*These* are the important differences between developers. Diversity in genitals has absolutely no bearing on pushing the industry forward.

6
Shelley - 10:47 pm 2/23/2007

Yes, it's amazing how people who are 'within the loop' don't get angry about these things, isn't it Eric?

Of course you wanted anger. You wanted outraged anger, because in this environment, that generates buzz and noise, and you need all such in order to get butts in the seat for the same old tired old crap, at 795.00 a butt. Why tired old crap? Because you have such a limited range of what you need from a speaker to make it 'marketable'.

You say ability and you talk about being able to be a good speaker, but your thing really is: you need Names. You need Names to fill the seats. You can't sell a conference unless you have Names.

You talk big words about pushing the bubble at this so-called cutting edge conference, in the same breath where you defend your belief in playing it as absolutely safe as possible in determining who to invite.

Yes, there will always be women who will coo, "Oh, we don't need any positive discrimination", and no matter how many voices are raised in outraged disbelief, you'll focus in on that because my god, you have a family to support.

Well, Eric, here's a clue for you: So do we women.

We women in technology who make 75 cents for every 1.50 you make.

We women who watch as you boys all pat each other on the back for your inane projects, while completely ignoring most of what we do.

We women, who watch the positions and the acclaim and the jobs and money and the books and the deals go to men, given by other men– and if we dare say anything, why how can we be so 'condescending' to other women.

Is that the new game, nowadays?

Damn us to hell, for making your lives uncomfortable.

You say why can't a conference be both good and a marketing success? I say, why can't a conference be both successful and diverse. The only difference between the two is the guts and the imagination and the determination of the conference organizers.

7
Scott - 10:51 pm 2/23/2007

"depends on what genitals they have."

Hi Jim!

Welcome to biology 101. Genitals are what we "in the biz" call secondary sexual characteristics. That is, overall, they aren't responsible for defining a person as one sex or another. Genes *do* determine the sex of a person. Women and men both have the same genes on their X chromosome, but different genes are activated in women than in men. And us crazy men have different genes altogether on our Y chromosome.

Now genes, genes are where the really interesting stuff happens. Genes, in some manner, DETERMINE BEHAVIOR. Amazing isn't it. By having different genes activated, you can see not only different secondary sexual characteristics but also different BEHAVIOR and THOUGHT PATTERNS. That is to say, a different way of looking at things. The environment in which a person is brought up also influences behavior.

So, if you are looking for fresh points of view, new ways of looking at things (and most of these conferences, somewhere in their marketing material, promise that very thing). There are two ways you can easily accomplish this.

1) Pick some folks with different genes.
2) Pick some folks who were raised in different environments.

8
Eric Meyer - 11:09 pm 2/23/2007

It's a shame you think I wanted anger, Shelley. Best of luck to you.

9
Shelley - 11:15 pm 2/23/2007

What did you say in your post? You're going to get fried for this, but you can take it? When did you start taking the easy route, Eric? And what makes you think that makes you worthwhile listening to?

I'm just amazed that Zeldman would go along with this. I guess he's not the fighter for right he used to be.

10
Shelley - 11:25 pm 2/23/2007

Dori, I see that Anil Dash has put together a list of women he finds acceptable. I do, too, but neither you nor I are on that list.

Me, I'm fine with that: the fewer lists I'm on, the freer I can speak and tell Eric exactly what I think of his 'bold little announcement' (that isn't supposed to cause anger, you see). But I know this is important to you.

A word of advice: you rock the boat, you'll be let off at the dock. That's the weblogging way.

Another decade of weblogging, and there will be no women in technology.

11
Ethan - 12:21 am 2/24/2007

Me, I'm fine with that: the fewer lists I'm on, the freer I can speak and tell Eric exactly what I think of his 'bold little announcement' (that isn't supposed to cause anger, you see). But I know this is important to you.

This may be neither here nor there, but I just watched a documentary about the US Evangelical movement's involvement in politics that contained an interesting thought: From the religious POV, according to one interviewee, one can either be a prophet, or an advisor.

If one chooses to be a prophet, one may concentrate on the truth with little regard for politics.

If one chooses to be an advisor, one may concentrate on politics with little regard for the truth.

Perhaps I am just aching to use this comparison in a comment thread, but to some extent, is this not what this issue is about? I am referring specifically to conference/speaking gigs, etc. You (Shelley) have established yourself in a manner that allows you to let it rip freely on your site (and beyond), whereas I trust that we can come up with several examples of people who chose the "advisor" path and just want to be close to the action (and more importantly, on the payroll), causes/progress be damned.

I'm extremely removed from the "techie" parts of this discussion, however I ask people like Eric Meyer, when speaking of the need for conferences to be "marketing successes", successes how? By what standard? And "good" in what way(s)?

And: What Scott said.

12
Shelley - 12:30 am 2/24/2007

Ethan, I echo you: what Scott said.

I'm neither prophet nor advisor: I'm chief PITA. Go me.

13
Shelley - 12:35 am 2/24/2007

Damn, my conscious is bothering me:

Eric, I apologize for saying you wanted to make people angry in order to generate buzz. That was out of line, that was uncalled for, and I'm sorry if I hurt you.

I stand by everything else I said.

14

http://daringfireball.net/2007/02/web_nerd_gender_diversity

Dan Gruber, whom I generally admire, doesn't get it either. It's easy to say "what's all the fuss about?" when you're already a member of the in-group.

*sigh*

15
Anil - 3:14 am 2/24/2007

"I see that Anil Dash has put together a list of women he finds acceptable. I do, too, but neither you nor I are on that list."

My list was far from comprehensive — if I were trying to do anything other than throw together a quick post, I could easily have added dozens more names, and both of you would have been on there. As well as, hey, my wife. So I hope you're not offended, you're both absolutely the peers of anyone on there, as is Alaina.

16

[…] Shelley said, "Diversity isn't important. And neither are standards or accessibility." […]

17
TRauMa - 8:47 pm 2/24/2007

Damn, my conscious is bothering me

See, that's why IT isn't a level playing field. Women have scruples. :-/

18
Scott - 10:47 pm 2/24/2007

John Gruber also said there's no way Apple is launching an iPhone at Macworld this year. So take his opinion with a grain of salt.

See all of these people that are saying "We only want the best presenters at our conference" are missing something.

See, none of them invite any women speakers (or only invite one or two women speakers).

Then they say they only invited the best speakers.

Which means they think there aren't any good women speakers. And since they think there aren't any good women speakers, they would have to lower the bar to meet their standard for "best".

Which seems pretty insulting

19
reader - 1:43 pm 2/25/2007

I love how you compare women speakers in conferences to people with legitimate disabilites (cripples, the blind, etc.). Are you saying that being a woman in and of itself is a disability?

20
Shelley - 1:55 pm 2/25/2007

Pascale, it was a disappointing post on Fireball's part. But then so was the reaction in other places.

Anil, no worries on that. But I am getting a bit wistful when I see the same women mentioned over and over.

Trauma, I don't know about scruples: I believe in apologizing when one has made a mistake. It's honor more than scruples. But yes, apologizing isn't something I've seen from many of my male contemporaries.

Scott, I felt women were insulted. What was worse is those of us saying, Wait a Sec, what's wrong here, are then twisted about so that we're the ones doing the insulting. Can't win.

Anonymous reader, I think conferences should also have anonymous people, and there's not enough anonymous people at conferences. We could have speakers with bags over their heads and those devices that disguise their voice. So see? I'll even move to support you having your say.

21
Anonymous Bag Head - 7:57 pm 2/25/2007

You know who else is under represented at these tech conferences?

Me.

I don't get to speak. I don't even get to attend. I work in the field. I feel I have put in my 'dues.' So why not me.

For ever ( select_descriptor_from_class: ethnicity, gender, orientation, ability, etc. ) human that gets to speak at a conference, their are ( world population - 1) humans who don't get to.

And I am tired of it not being Me. I can be reasonable, rational, polite or offended, cussing, fist pumping mad, either way doesn't matter. (conference planner name) hasn't met me, doesn't know me, and its their loss. Fuck them for not promoting Me.

Next time you (not Shelley, but you dear reader) are feeling oppressed by ( select_descriptor_from_class: ethnicity, gender, orientation, ability, etc. && does_not_match_Me) within your industry, or your community. Stop what your doing, close your eyes, and say, "Fuck Me. FUCK ME!!! Fuck me, damnit, for being so preoccupied with myself." Then turn to your neighbor and say, "Hi, I notice your not speaking at this conference, would you like to organize a conference with me? I'm sure we have some perspective / talent / skill that someone else doesn't have. Maybe we offer to share said ability / info."

Oh, and Shelley, if you want to speak at a conference, how about you take your professional skills, and put together a presentation and shop it around to different conference promoters, I bet with your will to be heard, you'll find that conference planners will be happier to have another potential speaker. If you think you'll be ignored because you don't have a big name, then start with your local high school or community college. Build a resume of your speaking engagements, and keep an eye out for people that show up for your speeches that aren't exactly like you, especially if they are students. Then offer them an internship, or an hour of your time every Saturday morning to do a collaboration.

Seek out the disenfranchised and invite them to YOUR table. Pretty soon you will have forgotten Eric Meyer even had a table, or a blog, or conference that made you feel ( your_emotion_here ). You'll have a whole network of diverse people who appreciate that you did them a favor, stepped out of your comfort zone or busy life to share something of value.

And Me, I might just pick a name and stop being anonymous. Strike up a relationship with a stranger and start my own community. The web is an enabler, not just for a shrieking voice in the wilderness, but for a chorus. And there is room for more than one chorus of voices.

22

[…] Shelley Powers […]

23
sm - 9:26 am 2/26/2007

Shelley

I don't know who you are, I don't think I've come across your name or blog before being linked to this post. Just thought I'd say: congratulations. In a single blog post I have gone from having no opinion whatsoever about you to thinking you are a bitter, irrational, raving and foaming-at-the-mouth idiot.

"And I'm sick to FUCKING DEATH of the assumption being that having more diversity means having a 'weaker' conference or presentation."

Well, if it's a case of dropping high-quality male/white speakers, in order to get a certain quota of female/other ethnicities onto the roster, even though those speakers actually have less of "ANYTHING NEW" to bring to the conference than the dropped white males did, then obviously YES IT DOES make it weaker.

If on the other hand, you think there are women / minorities who genuinely have more/better/different ideas, then they will be hired ON MERIT. And while, therefore, you're right to say it won't worsen the conference quality overall, Eric is also therefore right in saying "What’s important is technical expertise, speaking skills, professional stature, brand appropriateness, and marketability…" - since they are being hired ON MERIT not for the sake of diversity in itself.

So really your attack on Eric is clearly flawed one way or other. Either you believe in some sort 'diversity-for-diversity's sake' policy, in which case we have worse speakers than if we hired speakers on their qualities as speakers alone, and disregarded diversity. Or you believe in a meritocratic approach in which case that's what Eric said in the first place, so your bile is misplaced.

Still, reading the comments makes it pretty evident which way this is going…

"We women who watch as you boys all pat each other on the back for your inane projects, while completely ignoring most of what we do."

WTF is that supposed to mean? Your comparison of earning powers in the previous sentence was heading towards a serious point (as I am assuming it was based on real data, even if you didn't cite any source). If you'd continued down that line perhaps we could take this remotely seriously. But this? This is… just … garbage. All projects ever done by any "boys" ever (oops, you're revealing that your supposedly anti-sexist views are actually just sexist in the opposite direction) are "inane". Really? All decent projects done by any women ever are ignored by all men? Really? Er… no. Clearly not; clearly this is just a very general, non-specific, evidence-free, childish, unprofessional and downright nonsensical rant; it comes across as a deep-seated sense of anger, bitterness and "waa! i'm so victimised" being dressed up as if it's some sort of actual fact.

Overall, this entry reads like a persecution complex unleashed into the form of wild target-missing and ad hominem attacks on somone who *shock horror* stated a preference for a meritocratic rather than quota-filling approach to diversity. I'd say if you want to further the reputation and credibility of women in web design this blog entry was pretty much the absolute polar opposite of how to go about it.

24
Dan Guy - 12:01 pm 2/26/2007

I don't understand the assertion that conferences need big names. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've been to Web Design World on both coasts nearly every year since 2002 and I'm getting so sick of hearing the same talks from Eric Meyer, Joe Marini, Kelly Goto, et all.

I am sick of the big names. I'm not planning on going to any more of these "more of the same" conferences this year.

I would LOVE to go to a web conference featuring a slate of people I had never heard of as chosen by those I had.

25

[…] questions about speaking, conferences, and diversity by TantekThe diversity division by Jeremy KeithDiversity isn't important.. and neither are standards or accessibility by Shelley PowersOn Conferences and Diversity by Jen HanenThe Old Boys Club is for Losers by Anil […]

26

[…] posted their own thoughts on this topic. Some believe that the whole issue is irrelevant, while others continue to stress the importance of encouraging diversity. Dave Shea mentioned that with Web […]

27

[…] a response to the following posts: Jason Kottke, Anil Dash, Eric Meyer, Tantek Celik, Dori Smith, Shelley Powers, Kim Blessing and Virginia […]

28
Bud Gibson - 4:05 pm 2/26/2007

Having read Rogers Cadenhead's post on this topic where he presents a list of qualified people not invited, I basically agree with you. However, I'd broaden the point beyond just women and minorities. These conferences are cliquish and built on an old broadcast model of the few communicating with the many. One of the features of that model is that the few did not necessarily have to be the most qualified or best, just the ones with access.

In my opinion, that's what we have in the case you describe. Winer's unconference might be a solution, but I'd recommend something that is a cross between online and real life. How about a conference where people blog on a topic using certain tags and then the organizers follow those tags and integrate across them. For any given topic, I think that method scales to just about 50. Then people emerge. Maybe we'll try something like this at my new home, Eastern Michigan University.

29
shelleyp - 11:52 pm 2/26/2007

I haven't been responding to much of this lately, because I'd rather write on the topic in more depth, and from a calmer perspective in a future time. I appreciate the comments, even those in vehement disagreement.

30
Zo - 4:13 am 2/27/2007

Wow. And I don't even work in the industry. I am as damn disappointed in Gruber as the next woman–other than that, it's fascinating to see, y'all are pretty much following the pattern of the fallout anywhere from, gasp, Angry Woman. She is fuckin' driven to distraction by the refusal to get the point - that was a pretty good pass, Eric, but no cigar: when it comes to yr wife and daughter, you're going to want something more than Marketability, too. Every man here who listens, who simply listens - notice how quiet it is? How the dialogue goes on? Bless yr hearts, and Shelley too, for, as always, taking the risk, being real.

Thanks to all those who have contributed to the discussion. Comments are now closed, but you can contact the author of the post directly.