June 17th, 2007

If you're an older woman in tech you're faced with a double whammy. In the last post, we discover we're too old to 'hack the web'. However, we're also not considered much of a programmer, either. Or at least, that's what I read from the table of contents and authors for the new O'Reilly book, "Beautiful Code: Leading Programmers Explain How They Think."

Out of 39 authors, only one is woman, and she's a co-author of one chapter.

Way to set a real high standard, there, O'Reilly. What can I say? When O'Reilly raises the bar on diversity, the call goes out for Limbo!

Disclaimer I have written several books for O'Reilly, and am currently working on a new one.

update

The organizer of the book stated (in comments, email, and post) that he contacted 15 women to write an article for the book, and only one responded affirmatively. He contacted 130 men, and 37 accepted–giving an acceptance rate for men was about 25% (I show 28%), and for women, about 6%. I would imagine since the invitations were based on how 'well known' and 'popular' the person is, the list of women invited would include the same women who are always invited to participate in these events. This probably accounts somewhat for the lack of time to be involved in a project–I don't know, the names of the women were not divulged.

I am disappointed that more of the women didn't participate. I'm even more disappointed if none of those who could not participate didn't bother to recommend others in their place–heavily disappointed in this one. But I'm also disappointed that O'Reilly didn't work with the book organizer to attempt to contact other people who might have helped the organizer determine other good candidates.

The number of men invited was 130, women 15. This means the invitation rate for women was 11% that of men, which is a small pool on which to depend. If we look at the topmost 10-11 percent of men invited (based on the same criteria of popularity as applied to women), would we still have the same 25% acceptance rate? Hard to say, because again, we don't have all the data to extrapolate true knowledge.

I do know this: even doubling the number of women invited may have driven out 2 or 3 additional women. Not many women, true, but at least the lack of women wouldn't be so painfully obvious. The acceptance ratio might even have been higher, if the pool of available women is extended beyond the same criteria used in every other event of this nature.

The result of this small additional effort would be that not only would women in technology have felt we achieved some fair representation in the book, the work would also have provided a more diverse point of view, and thus been a richer book. But what was it that was written in comments to this post?

While they could make an awesome book, of course, with a more diverse quality of authors, but that is not their priority; it is a waste of time, in my mind, to spend time trying to find someone of a certain gender or race, when one could get a similar result without all that effort.

The organizer of the book accepts full responsibility, but I'm not letting O'Reilly off the hook. The company knows that this is an issue that arises time and again, and should have been sensitive to such and worked with the organizer. Now, what we have is a reaffirmation–yet another reaffirmation–that whether women in tech are represented or not just isn't that important; that working towards such is 'not worth all that effort'.

You know what's sadly ironic about this? The author royalties (not company profits) from the book go to Amnesty International, an organization I strongly support primarily because it is one of the few that won't compromise when it comes to fighting for the rights of women.

Comments
1

We have 1 female programmer at our work in a sea of men. Trust me, if there's one thing I would love it would be to have a staff with an equal match of women to men. This isn't a sexist remark - it's really the truth. Every where that I've worked where there was a good staff of women, things ran much smoother. I like to think of it as bricks and mortar… without a balance, it's difficult to keep the building up!

I can't blame O'Reilly. You folks are hard to come by!

2
Shelley - 9:29 pm 6/17/2007

And O'Reilly is doing its darndest to ensure that women no longer feel welcome nor comfortable in the field.

3
maria - 9:39 pm 6/17/2007

I was going to comment something along the lines of "plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose," when it comes to women in any profession with status and pay, not just status (for witness what's happening to the medical profession these days), but then Douglas Karr's comment gave me a particularly Freudian slip of a reading when he wrote "1 female programmer in a sea of men…. Drowning in the same old river takes a entirely new meaning this way then.

Then again, maybe with this latest in which the young are the masters of the universe, or version 2 of it I should say, some of the old geezers who used to write "beautiful code" can join us in the back rooms of relevance, eh?

[And yes, I am back… starting over, though, quite tentatively for now]

4

Um, just because this book only has one woman in it, that doesn't mean that they are sexist. To specifically make sure you have as many women as men (or on the other side, as many or more men as/than women) is irresponsible, and is compromising the real purpose of a project. Sure, it is nice to have women and men in equal numbers, but I would assume they are thinking more about making an awesome book, not about gender equality. While they could make an awesome book, of course, with a more diverse quality of authors, but that is not their priority; it is a waste of time, in my mind, to spend time trying to find someone of a certain gender or race, when one could get a similar result without all that effort.

I'm going to give oreilly the benefit of the doubt on this one…

Just my opinion

5

I can't blame O'Reilly. You folks are hard to come by!

How do you know whether they even tried to find them?

6
Dori - 10:24 pm 6/17/2007

You folks are hard to come by!

And this is based on what, precisely? I think that we're rather easy to find, but that's because I've seen an unemployed female programmer every time I've looked in the mirror since 1998.

Dori
(wrote one-half of a now out-of-date O'Reilly book)

7

[…] previous post of mine, recently updated, go? Maybe it took off to prove the point and argue with Shelley that women and "beautiful code" rarely should mix in polite […]

8
Charles - 10:39 pm 6/17/2007

Attempting to look at it from O'Reilly's perspective, they obviously feel their market is young male programmers who need an education. So how are you going to sell books to this demographic without catering to ignorant young mens' belief that they are the only ones who matter? And for role models, this demographic can only aspire to the status of a Saint Kernighan, not Sister Grace Hopper.

9

I don't understand what your gripe is here. While women may make up more than 2.5% of programmers, in terms of 39 programmers, the "right" proportion would probably only add one more woman to that group.

Now, even if women were severely under-represented in this book, how would this book be making women feel unwelcome?

10
Nathan Ko - 1:30 am 6/18/2007

Who would you replace, with which women, and why?

11
Phil - 1:49 am 6/18/2007

Ioannus: I would assume they are thinking more about making an awesome book, not about gender equality. While they could make an awesome book, of course, with a more diverse quality of authors, but that is not their priority

I think you've just answered your own point.

Charles: how are you going to sell books to this demographic without catering to ignorant young mens' belief that they are the only ones who matter?

I see you agree with Shelley about the causes and effects of what O'Reilly are doing here.

One out of 39 is shameful.

12

So 1 out of 39 is not a fair representation of women in programming? I'm not sure there are even that many.

13

[…] Powers has pointed out that only one of the contributors to Beautiful Code is female.  It wasn't for lack of […]

14
Greg Wilson - 8:04 am 6/18/2007

Hi everyone — first off, it isn't O'Reilly's fault: I'm the one who approached people, and selected contributors, so if there's any blame here, it should be thrown at me. Second, I did try to get more female contributors, but only 1 of the 15 women I approached was able to find time to write something for us (see http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog/archives/981.html). In contrast, about 25% of the men I approached chose to contribute. I'd welcome comments on why this might be, and what I could do differently next time.

15
Colin - 8:07 am 6/18/2007

Are there any statistics out there regarding women programmers? Given the wide range of languages and fields that programmers work in these days it seems that such a number would be difficult to come by. It would be interesting to see how the proportion of female programmers matches up to the proportion of published female programming writers.

Though, even without such statistics at hand I have to believe that it is more balanced than 39 to 1 (this just based on the number of brilliant female programmers that I have personally come into contact with).

16
Karl Fogel - 4:53 pm 6/18/2007

How exactly is O'Reilly to blame here? From an unbalanced pool, they did what they could to recruit women, contacting them at a rate that may actually be higher than their presence in the pool of potential authors, given the numbers above.

A common trope in these discussions is to say "Yes, but they could have done more…" And who could ever argue with that? Naturally, more work always remains to be done. Whatever the goal, you can always do more. The question is, when do you get to say you've done enough and ship the darn thing? The author of the original post didn't do more — she didn't bother to suggest one woman who might have been considered but wasn't (while still expressing her disappointment at the women who turned down the gig but didn't recommend others to replace them, hmm).

Meanwhile, O'Reilly found 15 women and asked them, so one side here at least attempted to do something constructive. How much extra effort is Greg Wilson or anyone else at O'Reilly supposed to go through to correct a sex imbalance that is not their fault? Is their time worth nothing?

O'Reilly tried, but they weren't able (within their time constraints) to find a woman willing to write a chapter. That's not sexism, it's merely avoidance of mission creep, and there's nothing wrong with it.

[Disclaimer: I'm one of the authors in the book under discussion, and author of another O'Reilly book.]

17
Scott - 5:17 pm 6/18/2007

Maybe the author should post a list of women he contacted on his web site and their reasons for declining? "Out" them so to speak.

18

Hard to come by is based on the fact that we get over 100 resumes from male developers for every single female developer. We need more female developers in the industry. I appreciate Shelley's comment -> folks like O'Reilly may be able to make a difference by promoting diversity in their books. It's a valid comment and I'd like to see it in action.

As for us, we'll continue to actively recruit women… when we can find them. If any women in Indianapolis disagree, please contact me through my website and I will get a recruiter to contact you. We need C#/Ajax developers who can do front-end, middle-tier or framework work. We're an Inc500 company centered in Indianapolis.

Thanks,
Doug

19
Shelley - 5:23 pm 6/18/2007

Believe it or not, Mr. Fogel, I and others have provided names of women in tech before this, to O'Reilly for conferences, and based on previous incidents of this nature. I just no idea if any of them were included in this invitation list.

The problems with providing such lists is that women on the list are beginning to feel that the _only_ reason they are being invited is to, what was it? "Fill a gender gap" — not because they have something worthwhile to say (which they do).

As for the amount of time, An email sent out with an invitation, telling the people they have to provide an outline in a week if they're interested does not provide, in my opinion, a huge amount of time.

How much effort should they do? Well, from this incident, it would seem that O'Reilly values diversity very little, because no extra time was taken other than invite the original group of women.

As it was, the number of women asked was 11% of the men asked. If people want to tell me this is 'fair' and 'reasonable', they can, but don't ever expect me to agree with it.

However, whatever opinion I have won't impact on sales, which is really all that anyone cares about.

20
Shelley - 5:26 pm 6/18/2007

Doug, thanks. What I should so is start up a job listing for women in tech for companies actively recruiting. With the understanding that company's like yours really do want a more diverse workplace because it's healthier, and ultimately more productive.

21

Even allowing for hyperbole, 1 out of 100 applicants to a job posting being female seems quite low to me. I don't have statistics at hand for resumes received (and, for that matter, I can't always tell the gender of an applicant just from the resume), but in my most recent hiring stint, about a fifth of the candidates who made it as far a phone screen were female.

22

The last statistic I heard on the percentage of women in open source is about 2%, so .5 authors out of 39 seems a *tad* low, but I hardly think it's worth lambasting O'Reilly over and accusing them of only caring about sales. I know that this post is a rant, but it seems misdirected.

-Fitz, also an O'Reilly author, programmer and also not a woman

23
Shelley - 8:57 pm 6/18/2007

Brian, where did you find that statistic? And this book isn't focused on open source, is it? I mean, it features Petzold, and last I checked him out, he works with MS tech.

Formal measures have women at between 17 and 22 percent, depending on whether you're looking at incoming college numbers, as compared to numbers who count themselves a professional tech.

This 'rant' is a way of bringing attention to a disparity in an O'Reilly product. To highlight, yet again, a lack of diversity. O'Reilly is not a passive player in the tech community. The company does have influence.

And I've written more books for O'Reilly than anyone in this thread.

24
John - 9:46 pm 6/18/2007

"The problems with providing such lists is that women on the list are beginning to feel that the _only_ reason they are being invited is to, what was it? "Fill a gender gap" — not because they have something worthwhile to say (which they do)."

So if O'Reilly didn't invite enough women to satisfy you, they're guilty of sexism — but if they did, they're guilty of tokenism.

Horse feathers.

If you want to get invited to speak at technical conferences and to publish in technical books, make undeniable technical contributions.

25
Shelley - 10:06 pm 6/18/2007

Why are you angry, John? Because I was critical of O'Reilly? Heck, I would figure Tim O'Reilly or Andy Oram would be angry at me for this, but they're used to me. And you don't work for O'Reilly.

Because you're buds with one of the authors? I have not said anything negative about the contributors, and when I was baited with the trap of who I would bump off, declined to answer.

Because I pointed out the lack of women? Because I said that one of the problems with the same list being circulated is that the same group of women gets asked all the time, and they're getting tired? And that we need to expand past the usual boundaries?

That a more diverse product is a richer one? A better one?

So you're unaware of work women in tech have done. Perhaps if women were given such opportunities, you'd see the undeniable technical contributions. But you have to remove your blinders, first.

26
Grauw - 1:26 am 6/19/2007

I’m responding to the question "Brian, where did you find that statistic?" on the amount of women in open source, I myself first heard about this read about this in Mitchell’s blog, also a woman and the CEO of Mozilla, of the famed open-source Firefox browser.

Anyway, very typical that only 4% responded. I’m not so sure about your argument that they’re busy because they’re asked so often, but at least I think it’s clear now that you’re reading too much in this. Artificially creating a perception of a women-hostile environment certainly won’t encourage more women to work in computer science either!

I’m all for having more women in the workplace, and I would go to great lengths to make them feel more comfortable, but if they’re not there it’s hard to find them. I mean, I study computer science, and I can count. The number of women in the classes is awfully low compared to the number of men. If that number would suddenly as if by magic (because I can’t think of any other way that would happen, ‘we’ certainly ain’t discriminating anyone!) drastically increase to an equal distribution, it would still take years before they are part of the workforce, and more years before they are in senior positions.

At my job, there is only one woman who is a programmer, the others are all in sales and management. And that’s not because there is an abundance of women banging on the doors but we’re not letting them in because women can’t program.

Anyway, your post’s title is spot-on. Indeed, very few women program.

~Grauw

27
James - 1:55 am 6/19/2007

http://flosspols.org/outline.php says 5% of open source developers are women, vs 25% proprietory. http://webchick.net/files/women-in-floss.pdf (sadly 404, although Google has cached it as html sans-images) says 1.5% vs 28% according to http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/04/09/only-15-percent-of-open-source-developers/

There's more good stuff on flosspols.org, including

In some parts of the world such as Malaysia, computer science programmes have half female students (Ng 1999), and it is considered a job ‘suitable’ for women (Berg Lagesen 2002). Indeed our survey showed for F/LOSS that in non-western countries the share of women is twice as high as in Europe and the USA.

and while is mostly F/LOSS focussed, has some recommendations pertinent to all types of software development, including

Create a greater understanding, through research and dissemination of projects where technological success was achieved because of diversity.

28
Shelley - 7:15 am 6/19/2007

Grauw, I've always respected Mitchell, but will still have to see the research myself. When I discover sites like DevChix, I realize there are probably more women than we think, but we're not getting the visibility. That's incredibly important. Essential, in fact.

How many of the women at DevChix went to college in comp sci? That's the key — a lot of women enter the field via other avenues.

James, now that does provide useful information, and I can believe about a higher density of participation in closed source technologies. I've seen a much higher percentage of women working with Microsoft technologies, than with open source.

Interestingly enough, when I was involved with MS technologies, the user groups seemed a lot more welcoming and open–to men and women– and a lot less 'competitive' and confrontational than those I've seen with open source. In fact, from my weblog readings, they still do.

29
Shelley - 7:28 am 6/19/2007

The biggest mistake made with this book, is the focus on the inventors, the researchers, the people who are famous. I presume because this would help to make the book sell.

Women have been involved in both inventing and researching, but not necessarily with the same outward looking, name dropping type of participation. As for being developers, most of the shops I worked in at major companies had women who were developers. Many had women who were both manager and lead developer. Their work literally runs the world, but it rarely makes you famous.

How many of these people in the book, would be as enthused, or as involved, if no one knew who they were, and what they contributed?

If for no other reason, than the royalties being contributed to Amnesty International, I hope the book does well. I believe it would be appropriate for O'Reilly to contribute all proceeds, but the company has to make its own decisions in this regard.

But an opportunity to present even a modicum of interest in diversity in the tech field was lost with this book, and nothing is going to change that.

30
Karen Reid - 10:57 am 6/19/2007

As a colleague of Greg Wilson (the organizer of the book), I am sad that he is bearing the brunt of this argument. Greg works *hard* to address the gender imbalance in our discipline. The ratio of women to men in the many undergrad research projects that he supervises is far higher than the overall ratio in our department. This happens because he seeks out the qualified undergraduate women (and students from other under represented groups). One only needs to browse his blog to see that he fighting the same fight as Shelley.

I am particularly sad because I had several discussions with Greg on what a difficult time he was having getting women to participate in the book. I'd like to thank the authors who did contribute for taking time out of their busy lives to contribute to what I think is a great book. (Disclaimer: I have only read 3 or 4 chapters so far.)

I absolutely share Shelley's concern on the underrepresentation of women in this field, and I am glad she is pointing it out to conference organizers and publishers. However, Greg is one of the good guys.

31
Shelley - 11:15 am 6/19/2007

Karen, I appreciate that Greg is interested in furthering diversity. I have read some of his past work that demonstrates it, and didn't once say he wasn't a 'good' guy. Heck, I've mainly focused on O'Reilly, because it really was up to the company to help Greg in this matter.

I am curious though, as to who Greg did invite, and how he got the names. It's so hard to help anyone determine what more could have been done, without this information.

And, frankly, it's too late now. Book is done. All indications are, it will be successful. And I'm about the only person who has brought up the issue of lack of women (I know of). So I don't think Greg will have to duck too many bricks.

32
Scott - 1:33 pm 6/19/2007

The biggest mistake made with this book, is the focus on the inventors, the researchers, the people who are famous. I presume because this would help to make the book sell.

Hand to God, I've been programming for 12 years and reading programming books for even longer and the only names in the table of contents of that book that I recognized were Tim Bray, only because he blogs, and Charles Petzold, because I've read his books.

33
Shelley - 2:12 pm 6/19/2007

I knew over half, but I checked the backgrounds of most. Most were from academia and R & D, sprinkling of language and compiler folk. Very few people like thee and me, Scott.

Little business representation. Not surprising, book editor is an academic.

34
Audrey - 2:51 pm 6/19/2007

How many of the women at DevChix went to college in comp sci? That's the key — a lot of women enter the field via other avenues.

I was curious about that too, so I'm attempting an informal survey. So far, it's about 50/50, with lots of mentions of knowing other female developers who have a non-CS background. I suspect that the proportion of computer degrees in a group like DevChix is higher than in the general female developer population, but I don't have any way to verify that at the moment.

So many of the things that come up over and over again in these conversations can actually be empirically verified, and I'm getting really frustrated at the continual attempts to dodge that. Proportion of women to men in software development? We can find that out, as well as the breakdown in various sub-fields, support areas like management or business analysis, etc, and from there do quite a bit of analysis. It's researchable, right? But instead people would rather talk from their perceptions, so not knowing any women with a particular set of qualifications becomes the same thing as no women existing.

And then the rest of us repeat ourselves: "Yes, there are women in this field. Yes, some people believe that diversity is a worthwhile goal. Yes, there are reasons fewer women are working in computing that have nothing to do with our interest in the subject." Over and over. Even someone like Tim Bray, who says he'd happily respond to ways this can be improved, shuts up as soon as actual recommendations are put out there.

So I don't think diversity is a priority to most people in technology right now, particularly within the 'social software/web 2.0' areas, and it's not going to get any better unless people start making that an active goal.

Not all of this is directly relevant to the book, but it's a symptom. And the response when I post these things on my own blog has been pretty quiet. I'm really frustrated.

35
Shelley - 2:59 pm 6/19/2007

"Not all of this is directly relevant to the book, but it's a symptom. And the response when I post these things on my own blog has been pretty quiet. I'm really frustrated."

Big amen on that Audrey.

36

Little business representation. Not surprising, book editor is an academic.

The sad truth is that it's very difficult to get people from industry to write. As a board member of IEEE Software, which is supposed to target professionals, I witness a continuous struggle to get authors from industry. We're always looking for contributors of regular articles, columns, or guest editors, and what I see is that people from industry are often too busy to contribute. I realize that in most companies writing a book chapter or an article isn't going to be appreciated and rewarded in the year-end review, and it will often mean that the author, in order to write it, may end-up sacrificing time with the kids. In contrast, academics are typically evaluated by their publications. This difference, although regrettable, explains why researchers and academics often feature disproportionally in publications targeting practitioners.

Also let me remark that being an academic doesn't necessarily mean that your head is in the clouds. Many of us contribute code to industrial-strength open source projects, consult real-world companies, and collaborate with the industry for solving practical problems.

37
Shelley - 3:38 pm 6/19/2007

That differs so much from a couple of decades ago. I remember going with my boss to an IBM conference in Chicago, where a paper of mine was submitted and she gave a talk. These activities were strongly encouraged at Boeing, where we both worked. As long as we remembered our security clearances and talked white room stuff.

No, I'm not degenerating the important part academia has played with the tech industry. But there is a vastly different view towards technology when you're working in an industry that is not focused on tech. Anyone from Citibank, to Starbucks, to Nike, to Anheuser-Busch, to the Post Office, IRS IT, and so on, can attest to this. And it was in the business world were I saw the most women in IT.

Interesting about having difficulty getting the business world IT folks to provide papers, articles, or such. I wonder if this has to do with the fact that there's so much of a threat of offshoring the work, and the people are keeping their heads down? That's another problem facing IT in business today: they are _not_ valued as they once were, and there's always the threat of their jobs being outsourced.

38

"Hard to come by is based on the fact that we get over 100 resumes from male developers for every single female developer. "

Wierd. A company that I work for, Bluewall LLC, just recently posted on Craigslist, announcing a job that we're hiring for. We've got about 10 responses so far. I think 4 were from staffing agencies. There were 3 individual males and 3 individual women. All the folks from the staffing agencies were male, but if you only count the individuals, the gender split was 50/50.

39
Ravi Mohan - 2:58 am 6/21/2007

Hello,

The book title reads "Beautiful Code: Leading Programmers Explain How They Think" .

Could someone provide a list (or blogs) of "leading programmers" who are women so I can see who were potentially missed for the book in question?

By leading programmers, I (as a humble reader and purchaser of such a book) would expect that the person concerned has made *significant* contributions to software and ideally has code (the "beautiful code" part of the title) out there that we can look at and learn from.

Let me clarify that , by distinguishing significant from famous. If someone wrote the network stack for linux or bsd that is significant even if they aren't famous and I don't (yet) know who they are.

In the enterprise space, the person(s) who wrote JUnit (or say Hibernate) made a significant contribution. The point I am trying to communicate is that I am not worried about whether someone is "famous" or not as long as they've written some "beautiful code".

Personally, I'd rather classify someone as a "leading programmer" based on the quality the *software* they produce rather than on gender or race, especially in the context of purchasing a book like this. *As a reader* I don't care about the gender or race or any criterion other than the quality of their code (and the quality of their writing as a secondary criterion).

With all that said, could someone here provide a list of "leading programmers" who are women? Thanks in advance.

40

"With all that said, could someone here provide a list of "leading programmers" who are women? "

Why don't you start with DevChix and Misbehaving and follow the author links back to their weblogs (where such links exist)? Or look at the blogrolls of what women tech writers you read and follow those links to other women tech writers? With about an hour's effort you'd find 50 interesting women tech writers that you might like to read.

41
Ravi Mohan - 3:37 am 6/21/2007

Lawrence,
"
Why don't you start with DevChix and Misbehaving and follow the author links back to their weblogs (where such links exist)? Or look at the blogrolls of what women tech writers you read and follow those links to other women tech writers?"

Why do you assume I haven't done this?

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. I am not trying to find "women tech writers" if by that phrase you mean people who are women and who work in tech and who write. I am looking for *leading developers* who happen to be women and who have written significantly superior code, so that they ought to be included in the book under question. Please note, I am not asking baited questions like "which man do yout hink should be bumped" . I am asking "Who are the women (in your opinion) who should have been included in the book" ?

I did look at devchix. I know of Desi McAdam from my Thoughtworks days, but I doubt if she would claim she is a "leading developer" who has written significant code and should be asked to write an article in the book under question on the basis of her contributions ot software.

If you don't mind could you point out who exactly in devchix has made significant (I've explained what "significant" means to me in my earlier post) software contributions ?

I am looking for people of the calibre of Matz or Kent Beck (in his developer role vs his "methodology guru" role) or alternatively, from the book in question, Brian Kernighan, or Karl Fogel , the criteria for "significant" being they have written software that is widely used and has changed software development significantly for the better, thus making them "leading developers".

Please note that I was very precise in asking for women who wrote significant software, not people who are interesting bloggers. There is a very clear difference.

And no, no one on DevChix seems to meet my criteria, which revolve around having contributed significantly enough to be included in a book titled "Beautiful Code - Leading Programmers Explain How They Think". To be included. a person has to be both "leading developer" and have written "beautiful code" , significant enough for other people to learn from.

If you know of women who've made such contributions, please feel free to list them. Following links from devchix seems to be a poor way to find such people. Otoh, Grace Hopper would be an excellent example if she were alive. Barbara Liskov is another good example (imo).

so let me ask again, Who are the women (in your opinion) who should have been included in the book? I am just asking for some names here and not objecting to (or supporting, for that matter) Shelley's opinion.

It is very hard to convey voice tone in written communication, but please assume a polite, non confrontational tone for my comments.

Thanks in advance

42
Alistair Fosoeur - 4:10 am 6/21/2007

I agree with Ravi. When it comes to code that has significantly altered the software industry, I think of people like Bill Joy, Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds, Kernighan and Richie, etc — there are very few women that are in that rarefied group.

Grace Hopper and the recent Turing winner, Frances Allen, are about the only two I can think of, and perhaps Ada Lovelace, but she's even more dead than Grace Hopper. I don't include people like Shelley or Kathy Sierra in this list, because they don't do the sorts of things that are awarded the Turing prize — the language/compiler/os/algorithm-design stuff that is strongly represented in this book.

I am all for greater involvement of women in the computing industry, but you can't really deny that when it comes to the topic of coding giants, those "on the list" will be heavily skewed towards language creators, compiler writers, OS creators, and programmers of incredibly influential software that is used by most programmers. These areas unfortunately have extremely few women among them, so the pool from which to draw is probably considerably less than 1 in 39.

43
Chris - 6:46 am 6/21/2007

Seems a horse/water problem.
In collaborating on small projects with my wife, she doesn't seem inclined to fret about the gnarly details of the code, though I can tell you that she's competent and detail-oriented elsewhere.
All I can do is be as welcoming as possible to all collaborators, irrespective of gender, etc. If the ponies don't drink, I'm not going to choose to feel bad about it.

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Shelley - 8:09 am 6/21/2007

Gentlemen, I call your attention to the list of programmers in the book:

Jon Bentley — university professor/writer

Elliotte Rusty Harold — professor/writer

Charles Petzold — writer

Lincoln Stein — writer (and doctor)

Andrew Patzer — Author

And this goes on. As others have said, most folks probably haven't heard of many of the people on this list. Have they contributed much? Yes, but not necessarily any more than many women in the field. The problem is they're better known than many women who have contributed equally.

The author of this book invited 130/150 men (I've seen two figures given) and 15 women. Much of this disparity is because there are fewer of us, true. I would have been stunned to see equal participation.

I expected, though, to see at least 2 or 3 women in the author list. Just 3 out of 39. Three, to represent the many women who have contributed to this field and have been pointed out in list after list after list.

Women who will never come to mind if we continue to have books and publications that only mention men, and men's accomplishments.

We women do contribute. We write the books. We teach the courses. We contribute code. We participate in lists, we provide support, we train. We write on technology in our weblogs, and in articles, and in papers. The only problem is you don't see us! And then, when something like this happens, it's our bloody fault that none of you know our names–not the real reason, that you keep your bloody eyes closed!.

45

[…] wandered across this post lamenting the low proportion of women who wrote articles for an O'Reilly book about coding […]

46
Scott - 9:35 am 6/21/2007

Ravi,

Who do you think deduced the structure of DNA? Most history books say Watson and Crick. But it was Rosalind Franklin who did the x-ray crystalography for them and told them that it was a right-handed helix. James Watson says as much in his book "The Double Helix".
http://crystal.uah.edu/~carter/protein/dna.htm

Just because someone doesn't get the publicity doesn't mean they haven't contributed. Who gets the big credit for having "invented" XML? Don Box. Tim Bray. But if you look on the spec, there are a LOT of names on it. Some are even women.

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Ravi Mohan - 10:03 am 6/21/2007

@Shelley,
" We write on technology in our weblogs, and in articles, and in papers. The only problem is you don't see us! And then, when something like this happens, it's our bloody fault that none of you know our names–not the real reason, that you keep your bloody eyes closed!."

hmm . I very respectfully asked a simple question. "Can you give me a list of women developers who you think should have been considered for the book".And I get abuse in return ? :-)

*I* sad nothing about whose fault it was. In particular i did *not* state that it was the fault of women. Shelley YOU are saying I said or implied that. Please don't put words in my mouth.

let me try again,

Some names please? yeah I *don't* know who these killer women programmers are! Sorry about that. How about giving me a list ? That will settle things.

I want a list of women who contributed *significant* chunks of beautiful code, ideally the kind of code I can download and take a look at. That is **all** . I am *not* looking for bloggers/ project managers /whatever else. I judge developers primarily by the code they contribute, not by blog posts. I am not sure why that is such a radical notion.

@Scot,
What made you think I thought there were no women in science? Madam Curie?

If you read my posts carefully, you'll see that the only person actually naming significant *software* contributions by women is … me? I have *absolutely* no problem with women getting their due! All I am asking is "who are these women, on a par with (say) Kernigham or Fogel"? My focus is on software development, not on science, not on business, not on space exploration.

Show me the code and show me the developers.

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Ravi Mohan - 10:14 am 6/21/2007

"Women who will never come to mind if we continue to have books and publications that only mention men, and men's accomplishments."

I explciitly dealt with the "not famous" argument in my first post. I use Matz as an example. He hasn't written an influential book, but he has written a very elegant and widely usedlanguage. I use Kent Beck as an example because (c) authored JUnit , widely used library. Does anyone think people use junit because Beck is a man? If a woman were to write a library that were siginficantly better, you can bet anything you like it will be used by sharp developers. I named Barbara Liskov as an example because her language CLU is a very elegant design.

I am primarily looking for *code* contributions. As a reader I don't buy a book titled "Beautiful Code" to read about bloggers or teachers or managers. Show me the "beautiful code" and then tell me the author(ess) of that code should have been a part of the panel of authors for the book.

In the absence of such specifics, this is just sexist (or reverse sexist) name calling. I don't intend to buy a technical (or technology centred) book to advance a political agenda no matter what the direction of that agenda is.

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Shelley - 10:25 am 6/21/2007

How about on par with the list of gentlemen I listed in my comment, Ravi. Why are you disregarding them? Have they contributed that 'significant body of code' you seem to need in order to 'validate' their worth?

Do you know why Kernighan is primarily known? He authored the C Book. True, he did come up with some algorithms, but it was primarily because he co-authored the C Book. It was an important book. I still have my copy from college. But you don't value the work of authors, so why do you value his? Memorized his name?

In fact, I doubt he's ever once contributed to any significant application in use or business process. (update OK, heat of the moment: I forgot about AWK. I corrected in a later comment. Bad me.)

As for list of women, how about Fellows of the IEEE? Would they work for you? Perhaps the list of presenters at GHC 2006. This is in addition to the lists hosted elsewhere in blogging, which you seem to disdain.

You don't really want to know about the women, or to even have the men challenged. You've reduced this to the lowest common denominator — lists of people. Lists that have been provided hundreds of times before. But lists you don't seem to see.

Lists you'll forget as soon as you leave these comments.

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Shelley - 10:46 am 6/21/2007

Godwin's Law states:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

I'd like to extend this with a new law, we'll call it Hopper's Law:

"All online discussions about visibility of women in technology ultimately reduce down to show me a list of women."

It is just as effective as Godwin's Law in encouraging an open exchange and honest communication.

I have work to do on a book. These comments will stay open another day. Feel free to continue the discussion, but don't expect my participation. Lists have been demanded, and yet again, provided. Reductio ad absurdum.

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Audrey - 10:46 am 6/21/2007

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned Allison Randal yet. She's the chief architect for Parrot, and works for O'Reilly as Tim's backup. But I only know of her because we live in the same metro area, and attend some of the same events. Or if you want someone involved with lower-level programming, there's Val Henson, who works on filesystems design. I can probably think of others when I get more awake.

It's a fallacy to say, "I haven't heard of women with these qualifications, so they must not exist." Not everyone keeps a high profile online, but can often be found if you ask.

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Shelley - 10:50 am 6/21/2007

"Not everyone keeps a high profile online, but can often be found if you ask."

Very true, Audrey. But the point is, before the book is written; before the conference is finalized; before the event is over — you have to think about asking before it's too late, rather than as damage control after the event.

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Ravi Mohan - 11:00 am 6/21/2007

@Shelley,

I think you are casting me as an opponent of adding more women to this (or any other similair ) book.

Not true. I have no problem with any number of women. All I am asking is that they have significant contributions as *Developers* under their belt.
From wikipedia

"Brian Wilson Kernighan (IPA pronunciation: ['kɛrnɪˌhæn], the 'g' is silent), (born 1942 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada) is a computer scientist who worked at Bell Labs alongside Unix creators Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie and contributed greatly to Unix and its school of thought. He is also coauthor of the AWK and AMPL programming languages."

"In collaboration with Shen Lin he devised well-known heuristics for two NP-complete optimization problems: graph partitioning and the travelling salesman problem. (In a display of authorial equity, the former is usually called the Kernighan-Lin algorithm, while the latter is styled Lin-Kernighan.)"

He did a LOT more than "write the C book". Do you think creating awk is insignificant? I am sure you know how important awk is to the unix/linux ecosystem. Please do your research.

you say
"You don't value the work of authors, so do you value his? "

I value his *code* contributions. In this context (deciding wjether he should eb interviewed for the "beautiful Code " book) his book is judged only insofar as it displays his *development* expertise.

Ina book about *developers* I don't want to see Kernighan for his "author" role. Kent should be there(imo) because he wrote the*code* for JUnit. Martin Fowler should NOT be in a "developers" book because he is not a world changing *developer* though he has written hugely influential books ("Refactoring" "Patterns of Enterprise Architecture" etc).

And IEEE fellows? No problem at all as long as they have written significant chunks of *code* ! I looked at the list. Which of those women do you think has contributed significant code so as to be included in a book about leading developers? I think I already mentioned Grace Hopper so we don't have an argument there.

As to the "less famous coders" like Tim Bray. Sure if you can show me women who have written as much (or as little) code as Tim Bray of the same or superior quality, by all means let's get them in the book *if * we can't find other superior developers (men, women, dog alien whatever).

But again where is the list of these killer dev women? and their code contributions?

I think what you probably don't get is that I am NOT saying women should not be included in the book. All I am asking is "where is the code"?

Let us look at your "lesser coders" in detail.

(from Wikipedia)
Jon Bentley

"He found an optimal solution for the two dimensional case of Klee's measure problem: given a set of n rectangles, find the area of their union.

Bentley received the Dr. Dobb's Excellence in Programming award in 2004.

He wrote the Programming Pearls column for the Communications of the ACM magazine, and later collected the articles for two books of the same name. He has published or presented over 200 papers."

His book (for which he is known) *is* about how to write beautiful code!
iow he writes *beautiful code* (and uses a book to teach us how). Which woman did something similair? If you can show me a woman (or women ) who have similair levels of *demonstrated* (in code) expertise I am all for adding her(them) to the book under discussion.

I wouldn't mind a "Programming Pearls Vol 3" no matter who writes it. I am sure if a woman wrote a book of the quality of programming pearls, showing us all how to write scintillating code , wrote 200 papers, discovered a few algorithms , I am all for including her.

That leaves Patzer, Bray, Petzold, Harold and Stein. I don't know any of these guys as great developers (*I* don't know - they may be great developers . again show me the code) . If any of them haven't contributed sufficiently good code let's get rid of them! (Where did *I* ever say they are the best choice? ). But saying that these guys aren't good enough developers does not mean you should replace them with equally bad/mediocre women. (PS: *I* am not saying these guys are bad. I am saying that I don't know if they have significant contributions of code. If they haven't they shouldn't be part of a book about great developers)

Let's get top range developers whether they be men, women or aliens. That is what i would expect in a book about exemplar developers.
But instead of replacing them with "women developers" , to meet some arbitrary political agenda, let us just find some significant codebases with beautiful code, find their authors and add them irrespective of whether they are women or men. I'd like to see an interview with the Chief Designer(s) of Adobe Photoshop (irrespective of whether that person is a man or a woman ).

As you see I have no axe to grind. All I am saying is that people (*people*, not men, not women) without significant code bases should not be in the book. If that takes out a Harold or Bray so be it!

I have NEVER said anything different in any of my comments on this blog or anywhere on the net!

All I am saying is that "beautiful *code*" is the metric

Theo de Raadt, Linus Torvalds, Andrew Tanenbaum, Richard Stallman. Their code speaks for them, not blogs not books, not training courses. If you are saying there should be more women in a book about great developers, so be it - as long as they have some beautiful, educational code to their credit.

next,

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Shelley - 11:08 am 6/21/2007

Point taken on Kernigham and his early work at Bell Labs. Actually, I forgot that he wrote AWK. Been a long time since I've even thought about him, but that was bad me to have forgotten.

"That leaves Patzer, Bray, Petzold, Harold and Stein. I don't know any of these guys as great developers (*I* don't know - they may be great developers . agian show me the code) . If any of them haven't contributed sufficiently good code let's get rid of them! (Where did *I* ever say they are the best choice? ). But saying that these guys aren't good enough developers does not mean you should replace them with equally bad women."

Speechless. You've left me speechless.

55
Ravi Mohan - 11:09 am 6/21/2007

@ Shelly,
Godwin's law ? heh!

If you are saying there should be more women in a list of good developers you *have* to show a list of candidates!

"But the point is, before the book is written; before the conference is finalized; before the event is over — you have to think about asking before it's too late, rather than as damage control after the event."

I TOTALLY agree!

I think perhaps you shouldn't assume that anyone who says "show me the code" is automatically anti-women (or anti- anything for that matter). Where we disagree is whether there is a "correct" ratio of men to women (or white to black , American to Indian , whatever. As a developer I just don't care - especially in the context of what I want in a book.).

Audrey (originally Autrijus ) Tang is an excellent developer. (S)he is a transgendered person. Let us interview Audrey, but not because she is an "oppressed minority" but because (s)he writes top notch code. As a developer i think I can learn a great deal from Audrey Tang.

@Audrey
"Alison Randal" Chief architect of Parrot. If we ignore the fact that Parrot is nowhere near completion yet (afaik I could be wrong I am not aware of any real world use) , this was exactly *exactly* the kind of information I asked for! Thank You!

Any more names would be appreciated.

I fully agree that one should *ask* . Which is what I did (see my first comment) .

And for *asking* I was shoe horned as some kind of Anti Women Bigot.

Anyway the comments are available here for all to see. Let the readers judge who is being unfair.

OK i personally *really* would like a list of top notch women developers. Shelley says such a list "has been provided". I don't see it here but would like to. If anyone has such a list, please send me a mail or url. Thanks in advance.

God win's Law. Sheesh!

It's very late in this part of the world. Good Night! Adieu!

56
Shelley - 11:33 am 6/21/2007

"Audrey (originally Autrijus ) Tang is an excellent developer. (S)he is a transgendered person. Let us interview Audrey, but not because she is an "oppressed minority" but because (s)he writes top notch code. As a developer i think I can learn a great deal from Audrey Tang."

Whether Audrey Tang is transgendered or not has nothing to do with this discussion, but your including reference to this, and the use of (s)he when referencing her leads me to conclude that I doubt you'll find much of interest here in this weblog, Ravi.

57
Al Maw - 2:22 pm 6/21/2007

Let's suppose the real ratio in the industry is about 5% women. I have no reliable stats, but that's about what it is in our company, and about what it was on the computer science course I did a few years back.

If you wrote millions of these books, out of forty-odd contributors per book, you'd expect to average two women. In this particular case there is one. Are you seriously trying to draw conclusions from something so lacking in statistical confidence? The sample size is just too small to say anything at all. (Unless you think the real figure is much higher than 5%?)

58
Alistair Fosoeur - 3:10 pm 6/21/2007

Shelley,

You are really being unreasonable and unfair with Ravi.

He says that he would love to learn from Audrey Tang, not because of gender but because of skill in coding, and you blast him for his use of '(s)he' as if that makes him some kind of sexist bigot who isn't welcome on your blog.

I guess it didn't occur to you that perhaps Ravi wrote '(s)he' not as a disparagement but because he isn't sure what etiquette or standard writing practice is. He must be sexist, huh?

59
ralph - 3:31 pm 6/21/2007

Just for the record, Kernighan also made significant contributions to troff, maintaining it after Joe Ossanna's death and modifying it so it would support a variety of typesetters. I don't suppose it's much in use these days, but back in the day, it worked pretty well. I typeset a few hundred computer manuals with it when I first started working, and wrote a couple dozen manuals with it after moving from book production to tech writing.

20 years at Bell Labs (more or less), you get steeped in this stuff….

60

This is good timing! I've just started work on a book of interviews with notable programmers for Apress. Right now I'm in the process of gathering as many names of potential subjects as I can before narrowing the list. I've got only a handful of women so far so if anyone has any other suggestions, take a look at http://www.codersatwork.com to see the list so far and send me email at peter@gigamonkeys.com with your suggestions of names not already on the list. And feel free to spread the word to anyone else who might be able to contribute names.

61
Arthur - 5:04 pm 6/21/2007

And feel free to spread the word

I bet nobody remembers Andrew Schulman or Matt Pietrek.

62
Chris N. - 6:12 pm 6/21/2007

I hope the following question will be taken as a suggestion for communication rather than as mere argumentation.

*How can we find these women? Have you any practical advice?*

And I don't think answers along the lines of "if you gotta ask, you ain't never gonna know" will be interpreted as very constructive.

Thank you.

63

@Colin most companies' HR depts have these statistics. It's just a matter of aggregating them.

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Shelley - 7:05 pm 6/21/2007

Al Maw, the number is higher. Between 17 and 22 percent.

Alistair, then Ravi should have said, "Audrey Tang is excellent. As a developer, I can learn from her."

Peter, it would help if you fine tuned your requirement to type of 'programmer' you're looking for the book. Are you looking only for compiler writers and language developers? Leaders of tech companies? Business app developers? R & D? Your list is rather all encompassing.

Ralph, yeah, I imagine. Must have been an interesting experience. And yes, Kernighan is an important leader in the programmer environment. I didn't mean to detract from his accomplishments.

Chris, how do you find men in tech? First you determine the type of people you're looking for. Then you put out feelers to people in the know for suggestions of names of folks. For instance, for Peter's book mentioned earlier, his list is so vague, I wouldn't know who to recommend. If he fine tunes it to a specific subset of 'programming', I'd probably have a better idea of who to recommend.

The challenge is that women's achievements are not as publicized as men's, which means that our names may not come readily to mind. There has to be _some_ commitment toward diversity, to go the extra mile in order to find technical women who would be a good fit.

Over time, as women's achievements are more publicized, the extra effort won't be needed. But it does start with a commitment — a belief that the work (job, book, presentation) will be better if it represents more diverse viewpoints.

But in these threads, people demand a 'list of women', as if we're all interchangeable parts on a shopping list ready to be bought. It is not very useful and frankly, a little demeaning. We all have our own unique strengths and interests. Not all of us do tech the same way. And no, not all of us want to be approached for these opportunities, which is why we need to extend beyond the same small group of well known (in weblogging) women.

That's why I asked Peter to fine tune his list a little more, and if he does, I'll offer suggestions, and point out the book to others who might be able to offer more. I would have done the same for Greg.

65

Well the basic criteria are, I'm looking for people who a) have written significant software b) would be interesting to interview about the art/craft/science of programming. And really b) is the only real criteria. The first is in there since I don't want to interview people who are famous for having opinions about coding but who don't actually do it much themselves. As I start trimming down the list to the 16-32 that I'll actually interview I'll be trying to pick people that will give me a balance of perspectives. E.g. folks with decades of experience vs the young whippersnappers; systems vs applications programmers; academically credentialed vs autodidacts; people who work well in teams vs lone hackers. And so on. At this point I'm just brainstorming so any names are okay. So please, if you know the names of great women programmers, send 'em my way.

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Ravi Mohan - 10:20 pm 6/21/2007

@Peter
"Well the basic criteria are, I'm looking for people who a) have written significant software b) would be interesting to interview about the art/craft/science of programming. And really b) is the only real criteria. The first is in there since I don't want to interview people who are famous for having opinions about coding but who don't actually do it much themselves. "

Excellent! I look forward to the book.

Thanks to all those who have contributed to the discussion. Comments are now closed, but you can contact the author of the post directly.