Categories
Political Weblogging

I beg to differ on Iraq

Recovered from the Wayback Machine.

In an earlier posting, I criticized Glenn Reynolds for his debating tactics. I said that he was using his influence to control the flow of discourse, and I stand by this statement. In fact I stand by it quite strongly. However, though he may control the flow of discourse, the debates rage unimpeded.

Earlier today, Doc wrote:

 

Glenn is right to say the arguments against the war, from the New York Times to the feeble peaceblogging movement (which isn’t one, since it seems to consist at the moment of a few reluctant volunteers), are late to the game and go lame when they stoop to name-calling.

 

While I don’t agree with Doc that peaceblogging is that scarce, or that reluctant, or even that late to the game, I do agree with Doc that name calling isn’t accepted debating technique. However, I’m not sure what debating techniques are allowed in this particular forum, or who is making the rules for same. Still, I will attempt to enter the fray with what I hope will be an acceptable argument, if rebuttal is considered an acceptable debating tactic. Specifically, in this particular post, I’ll refute arguments postulated by Eric Olsen, saving refutation of other’s opinions for other postings.

Eric Olsen responded to my earlier posting questioning his assertions. Firstly, he credited Doc for bringing a new community to the discussion about Iraq, example member of which I assume he means me. Though our paths have not crossed, I hasten to assure Eric that I’m more than aware of the warblogger discussions, about Iraq and other issues, and have been for many months. My involvement today was based more on enough interest being generated to overcome my natural disinclination to get involved in these debates, not from the fact that I was only today introduced to these issues.

However as that may be, Eric counters my posting with a clarification of his viewpoint, primarily consisting of the fact the US and Israel aren’t fighting a war of retribution, but one of prevention. In Eric’s view, to be effective the war must be extended to other countries, principally Saudi Arabia (using the appropriate name for the country since this is addressed to a wider audience), to ‘root out’ the Islamist virus.

Eric at that point feels that no further argument is necessary to explain aggressive behavior on the part of the US and Israel against these other countries, including, one assumes Iraq and Saudi Arabia. He then continues into a discussion about taking a decisive action in irradicating this ‘virus’:

 

What is more humane, a protracted struggle or a quick, decisive one? That is the question, the answer to which more and more political bloggers are saying “get it done now and be over with it for the sake of all involved, including those led to believe that their struggle can somehow, someway be won.” This cruel hope is what needs to be crushed, to be rooted out for the sake of the West (including Israel), and for the sake of a billion Muslims worldwide.

 

To summarize your viewpoint, Eric, You are suggesting that the US enters a country that is not currently in an aggressive posture with either ourselves or our allies, overthrow the legal government of said country, and replace it with one of our own choosing. When you strip away the allegorical content, that is what you are suggesting. Not only for Saudi Arabia, but also Iraq, and possibly other countries.

Eric, I don’t believe you’ve sufficiently proved out your argument that an invasion of Saudi Arabia, and we assume Iraq, must be a given. You’ve mentioned this Islamist (please provide definition of Islamist for general audience) virus with an epicenter in Saudi Arabia, yet from my understanding of the politial situation in Suadi Arabia, the ruling family is trying, with great effort, to prevent this same Islamist element from gaining more influence within the country. In fact, in my opinion, this is most likely one of the main reasons why Saudi Arabia has not come out more strongly against ‘terrorism’ — the ruling family’s hold is tenuous at best. Any agreement with us is going to make their position even more tenuous.

If anything, we should be helping the Saudis, not trying to invade the country and disrupt the delicately balanced political environment.

I don’t agree with the Saudis on many of the ruling elite’s social measures, particularly those associated with women. However, these issues are incidental to this debate, and I enter them only to clarify that I support the political position of the Saudis without necessarily supporting the Saudis personally. Bluntly, a Middle East with Saudi Arabia in turmoil is a much less stable environment, and a larger danger to Israel and the US then the current political situation.

As for invading Iraq, I have no recourse but to fall back on law when discussing why we can’t invade Iraq. According to international law, we have no evidence to support our accusations about Iraq creating new weapons of mass destruction, nor do we have evidence of Iraq’s involvement with Al-Queda, or with the Palestinians. There is no immediate threat from Iraq, other than the possibility, however good this possibility may seem, that Iraq is funding terrorism and developing biological and chemical weapons in violation of UN security rulings. Without immediate threat, we have no legal basis for an invasion.

I could continue with other reasons why we can’t legally invade Iraq.
However, there’s an FPIF report that lists these, so I’ll submit this now as part of my argument, open to rebuttal of course.

As a personal summation, though, I did want to add that no matter how much we believe that Saddam Hussein is planning heinous actions, and no matter how sure we are that he’s financing terrorism, if we act in violation of international law (law that we have relied on in the past), then we have become, in efft, the world’s worst nightmare — a US no longer bound and constrained by law.

If we have no legal basis for an invasion, we have no strategic basis either. If we invade Iraq, we will do so without the support of any ally in that area (except Israel). This means that the invasion must be managed without the support of many of our current military installations in the region. In addition, the bonds between the differing Arab countries, loose bonds at the best of times, will strengthen and we will, most likely, see other countries in the region ‘side’ with Iraq, even though traditionally they may not agree with Hussein.

At this point we would, literally, be an invading army surrounded by enemies, in a land that we don’t know, separated by great distances from a base of support. All of this without the support of most of the world, including many strong allies.

As an example of our experience with invasion into a country in the Middle East, let’s examine our intervention in Afghanistan. Though our intervention there was in conjunction with an ongoing struggle, with nominal approval of the people in the region, it has been less than successful. In fact, we are still rooting out Al-Queda members, and the political situation in the country runs from fragile to fragile, week after week. And this despite the facts that the invasion of Afghanistan occurred with help and support from surrounding countries, and with at least tepid approval from most of our allies.

Now we’re more or less permanently committed to the region because if we leave in the forseeable future, chances are the country will destablize — as happened to give the Taliban power in Afghanistan in the first place.

Eric, there’s a reason why the military has been against the invasion of Iraq. From a purely dispassionate viewpoint, there is no advantage to the US or to Israel to invade Irag now. Strategically, we won’t win. We might bomb the hell out of the country, but we won’t win. We might kill Saddam Hussein, or capture him, but we won’t win. All we’ll do is kill a whole lot of people, massively damage the country, destablize the region, create a whole group of new enemies, force more people into the underground as terrorists, and build yet more reason to fight a new battle, this one taken to the streets and the buildings and the churches and the schools of the US.

Ultimately, when you seek to defeat and humiliate a foe using superior force, he will use any means — any means — to fight back. He does not become malleable.

 

Strategically, there is no short-term or long-term advantage to the US or to Israel to invading Iraq in violation of international law, and without support of allies. As much as many of you despise the UN, our best approach, at this time and with our current knowledge of the situation in the Middle East, is to work with the UN security council.

Categories
Political Weblogging

The debate falters, lying broken in the dust

Yesterday I accepted the challenge issued by the so-called warbloggers to engage in an ongoing debate about war in Iraq; to put forth arguments without recourse to personal attacks. I believe that I accomplished this, writing up both legal and strategic reasons against war in Iraq and not once engaging in character assassination.

My regular readers are probably wondering why I bother, as these debates rarely go anywhere. (Especially since I’m under such a tight book deadline. Yeah, yeah, and ThreadNeedle is overdue, too.)

Past experience has shown that when those in my virtual neighborhood engage in said debates, we’re usually ignored by the warbloggers, or personally impugned. Rarely are our arguments directly referenced, with the point by point rebuttal or dispassionate cross-examination that marks good debating technique. Why tilt at the warblogger windmills?

What can I say, my lance was dull and needed sharpening, and my horse is fat and needs exercise.

Joking aside, debate is a remarkably effective method of finding which of our arguments are sound, and which are so full of holes they’d sink if floated on water. And there are many decisions being made in the US (and most likely other countries) based on some very leaky arguments. Good debate is a quality assurance process.

Since the first rule of debate is to define the subject, from this point on for this particular debate I’m going to label the sides pro-invasion for those in favor of invasion of Iraq; and anti-invasion for those against. The whole warblogger, anti-warblogger, peaceblogger labeling is getting tiring–time to start addressing specific issues rather than dump each other into dismissive categories.

On to the debate:

Eric did respond to Alan’s posting on the analogy of post-war Japan and humiliation, though as you’ll read from my comments, I felt that he didn’t adress Allan’s writing specifically. He also didn’t address Jonathon’s excellent posting, though has said he is writing more on this issue later. As for my own posting, he responded here and here. However, he also wrote:

Burningbird senses a weariness on my part to engage in a point by point debate. This is so because I sense we have no common ground whatsoever. That is why I have presented detailed overviews on the various issues: they indicate where I am coming from.

Eric, if we agreed, there’d be nothing to debate.

Den Beste wrote:

 

I favored the war in Afghanistan. I favor war in Iraq. I hate the prospect, but I consider all the alternatives to be even worse, and I believe that the longer we wait, the worse the cost of the war (to us) will be, and since I consider such a war unavoidable then the sooner the better. But entering a war is a major political decision and it unquestionably should happen only with emergence of public consensus, based on reasoned understanding of the issues by the public, which I believe can best be fostered by public debate. After Pearl Harbor, no such public debate was needed to create a consensus for war against Japan, but since I’m advocating a preemptive attack against another nation instead of a direct response to a direct attack by that nation, then we have the luxury of time for a debate, and an obligation to engage in one.

 

And I have been trying, off and on, to engage those who strongly disagree with me in such debate for months now, largely fruitlessly. Perhaps I chose the wrong forum to issue my challenge, given that those on the other side of the political fence who participated there at the time also tended to subscribe to a whole mishmash of post-modern multicultural dogma, to the extent that we couldn’t even come to an agreement about the fundamentals of epistemology, let along tackle the actual political issues. At the time I dismissed those epistemological concepts as “Berkeley Rules”, and in reaction I was myself dismissed as a bully and an insensitive boor who didn’t understand what a social gaffe it was for me to actually tell someone that they were wrong about something and to try to prove it to them and everyone else.

While Den Beste is a pro-invasion and I’m anti-invasion, I do agree with him about the importance of debate of this issue.

I haven’t seen any polls in regards to invading Iraq, but if any has been conducted, I wouldn’t be surprised that at least 50% of the people in my country believe we should invade Iraq. Their reasons vary, but chances are they’re reflected in what we read within the weblogs. Time to start talking. Time to start the debate.

Update: Eric did respond to Jonathon’s post with an extensive post of his own. However, me thinks the debate on the Iraq invasion between us has run its course.

Probably for the best.

 

 

Categories
Political Weblogging

The argument in defense

Recovered from the Wayback Machine.

Oddly enough, two separate threads related to two totally different subjects and both leading to this posting.

As stated earlier, B!x posted a reference to the Weblogging Consortium idea to Blogroots. At this time, I rather wish this hadn’t happened because the idea was just something I was throwing out to see what kind of discussion it would generate in my own comments; to see if interest was strong enough to take the idea further.

Well, it generated discussion at Blogroots. Lots of discussion. It also generated a great deal of dismissiveness, from me, and from others. Anil says I proposed the idea because I’m promoting my return to weblogging; Matt says that the idea is far too idealisitic; Melody states the proposal is ill-formed; and someone going by the name of ‘watermelonpunch’ sure doesn’t like the reference to ‘weblogging community’.

I’m feeling trapped behind bars that allow me little room for movement. Result: Oh, Yeah?

Conversations shut down before they even started, for what was nothing more than a simple idea. Slam! Hear that door shut! And not just on the ‘proposal’, but also on the criticism. Playing the game “What animal are you”, I could have been a hedgehog. Bristle! Defensive manuever! Lick them tennis shoes and foam at the mouth!

Or: How Not to Keep a Conversation Going 101.

And as I was trying to smooth the quills down on my back, I stepped over to Glenn Reynold’s and read:

 

this

The problem, essentially, is that Dave came into this debate late, and he’s not up to speed. He’s a smart guy, God knows, and as entitled to an opinion as anyone, but a lot of people have been wrestling with these things in somewhat more depth. Vague, general statements about playgrounds and bullies are merely inapt analogies, not arguments. You can make an intelligent argument against invading Iraq. And — here’s the other post I don’t have to make — Jim Henley has done so. I think he’s wrong, but it’s a question of the weight you assign to various factors, which is something about which reasonable people can differ.

And this

MARTIN DEVON is echoing a question of my own: why are the arguments offered by those opposing the war of such generally poor quality? I can make up better, more coherent arguments against the war than those who seem to have made it their mission to oppose it.

And this

MEETING THE CHALLENGE: HappyFunPundit is proving that warbloggers are better than anti-warbloggers even when it comes to thinking up arguments against the war.

 

You can hear the door slamming in each of the quotes that I pulled from Reynold’s site. The condescension as he dismisses other opinions, the refutation of other arguments as being poor according to his standards, the very fact that he doesn’t even reference most of the other arguments — only those of like mind — are all discussion killing tactics. He is using his position of influence to control the flow of the discourse.

Rather than refute the arguments, he’s disparaging the player; surprising behavior for someone who should be skilled in debate as one would assume a law professor would be.

If I taught “How Not to Keep a Conversation Going, 101” this morning, Reynolds has been teaching the advanced course all day long.

But then, he is a professor.

Categories
Government History Weblogging

Blast them all and let God sort them out

Recovered from the Wayback Machine.

I’ve been ignoring the whole ‘humiliation’ thing going on between Dave and Glenn Reynolds and Nick Denton. To me, it resembled the typical warblogger BS, and I’ve listened to this broken record one too many times.

What changed my opinion was when Doc joined the fray with a gentle admonishment to the warbies. What caught my attention in particular, was a quote from another weblogger, Eric Olsen, who wrote:

If the Armies of Allah are defeated, humiliated, crushed, scattered upon the four winds, then the whole philosophical house of cards collapses and you have a beaten, malleable people willing to accept a new way of life, such as Japan after WWII.

We can’t look at the puzzle piecemeal any longer: we can’t look at al Qaeda, Hamas, Saddam, wahabbism, Afghanistan, or militant Islam anywhere as separate entities. We must see the whole puzzle for what it is, and end the threat behind them all once and for all; this is exactly “inflicting a lesser misery to end a greater one.”

Eric bases his philosophical attitude about the importance of humiliation on his interpretation of Japan’s response to the atomic bombing, and how, in his opinion, they’ve become such good post-war partners because they believe that they deserved the atomic bomb. In reference to Hiroshima Peace Memorial Musem, he wrote:

The museum, the city, and the country emphasize peace and conflict resolution not because they don’t feel historical guilt for WWII, but because they do. The town and the museum almost revels in the details of the destruction wrought by the bomb, not out of self-pity, but out of a fundamental sense of sorrow and guilt FOR HAVING BROUGHT THIS DESTRUCTION UPON THEMSELVES.

The atomic bomb brought bitter remorse, not from those who dropped it, but from those whom it was dropped upon. Why remorse? Because they believe they deserved it.

I’m not going to respond to Eric’s assumptions about Japan, though I hope that Jonathon Delacour does. Jonathon, do you agree with this? Can this possibly be true?

What I am going to talk about is this widening circle of dispassionate hate against anything and all things Arab. Where once the warbloggers had focused on Al-Qaeda and the Palestinians, the focus is now extending in ever widening circles of inclusion — the enemy is not only Al-Qaeda and the Palestinians, but is also Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and we can only assume most if not all Arab countries at some point.

Eric’s opinion is echoed by Martin Devon, who wrote today:

Perhaps Iraq was really behind the Sept. 11th attack. Perhaps Iraq actually had nothing to do with it. The question of what role, if any, Iraq really played in the attack isn’t relevant. The reason that the U.S. should go to war against Iraq (and Iran, ‘Saudi’ Arabia and Syria) is simple. The advanced state of technology today is such that the world can no longer afford to allow a country to be run by an irrational actor. A world leader who cannot be rationally deterred from using weapons of mass destruction cannot be permitted to control them.

(Of course, reviewing George Bush’s past actions, his dubious corporate accountability, and his willingness to instigate warfare for no other reason then to increase ratings points, his inexperience, and to be blunt, his lack of intelligence — one could apply the same to our own leader. I do not sleep easy knowing that Bush has a finger on our nuclear button.)

Months ago I asked where we draw the line. At what point is the destruction we’re willing to contemplate no longer justified by the WTC attacks? At what point is the destruction we’re willing to contemplate no longer justified by those killed in suicide bombings? What’s the ratio of acceptable death and destruction?

What will finally sate the US and Israel?

It seems as that I’m finally getting an answer, and this time without the pretty varnish of “selective warfare” and “purely defensive combat”. The answer is: bomb them all and let God sort them out. (God, of course, being the God of the Jews and the God of the Christians.)

<edit >Most people, including many Arabs, would rather die than suffer such extreme humiliation. In this country, we refer to this willingness to die to prevent the humiliation of defeat, “patriotism”. By saying we must humiliate the Arab people — the ‘Armies of Allah’ — in effect we’re saying that Arabs who refuse to be humiliated in this way must die.</edit>

And what’s truly scary is not knowing if Eric or Marvin are examples of extremist warbloggers, or are representative of a people of a country I no longer recognize.

Categories
Political

So far left…

Recovered from the Wayback Machine.

Doc Searls has me pegged when he says that I’m a Lefty, though I agree with him that being libertarian is the only way to go with the Net. (Or better yet, anarchy on the Net, all the way.)

How far left am I? I’m so far left that I’d come full circle and run into Glenn Reynolds’ back if all those warbloggers kissing Glenn’s butt weren’t in the way.