Microsoft’s proposed namespace distributed extensibility in HTML5

Per Sam Ruby, Microsoft has submitted a proposal for distributed extensibility in HTML5, which features the use of namespaces.

The proposal uses reverse DNS names, but other than those ugly sons-of-bitches, it looks promising. There are some issues, including no support for innerHTML on namespaced elements, because they would end up defined as Element, not HTMLUnknownElement, but I don’t think that’s going to be a real problem in the wild. More importantly, I believe the proposal would handle the problems I noted in my last writing, about the valid use of namespaced elements and attributes in SVG. The issue with namespaced elements in SVG isn’t a made-up problem or one that is unlikely to occur: it is a real problem, it will occur in the future, and it does require real solutions. The problem is not going to go away because Ian Hickson clicks ruby shoes together and murmurs “There’s no such thing as namespaces…there’s no such thing as namespaces…” This absolute refusal to acknowledge something that has existed on the web for a decade is, frankly, unconscionable.

I wish I could say that the happy campers of the HTML WG are willing to at least enter into an open and unbiased discussion on the proposal, but I stopped believing in fairy tales, a long time ago. There is contention on this issue (namespaces for distributed extensibility), as noted in the past, in the current discussion, in the HTML WG bug database, related to the new RDFa-in-HTML proposal. Needless to say, the WhatWG members have responded in their typical, open and mature manner.

But here’s some cold, hard reality for Ian et al: this isn’t a proposal from folks like me, who have little say, and no power. This proposal comes from Microsoft. Microsoft, who still maintains a dominant position when it comes to browser use in the world. The HTML5 editor cannot simply ignore the proposal, pretend he doesn’t understand it, or rubber stamp it WONTFIX. Not this time.

SVGWeb and the XML Issue

I’ve been playing around with SVGWeb, liking the library more over time. I re-created the SVG in HTML5 example, and at first it didn’t work. I thought it could be because SVGWeb couldn’t manage the metadata element, but when I loaded the page in Firefox, with Firebug, I found that the SVG/XML still had the bugs I inserted to test whether the Firefox nightly would correct the HTML-enabled errors—the example still had an unquoted attribute, and elements with missing tag ends. In fact, I got XML error messages within the Firebug console exactly I would expect such errors if I loaded the SVG directly in the browser.

SVGWeb manages SVG for browsers that can handle SVG by creating an XML document of the SVG. You can tell, because if you click the circle with the new example, all of the namespaces for the RDF/XML elements are handled properly, even though the page is parsed as HTML. To me, this is the way SVG should be handled in a document, whether the document is parsed as HTML or as XHTML. This pretense that SVG is not XML when its in HTML is patently absurd. It doesn’t map to anything that exists in the real world.

The SVGWeb library is a wonderful tool, but I would really prefer all that functionality be embedded directly in the browser handling of SVG in HTML. I read the past discussions on SVG in HTML, about how trying to maintain the XML nature of SVG within HTML would require “exceptional parsing rules”, or something of that nature. It seems, though, that SVGWeb is managing the issue just fine, and doing so without having to make one change to any parser for any browser. SVGWeb works by generating a SVG document and inserting the document into the DOM (if the browser supports SVG). Technically, this is little different than what happens for inline SVG in XHTML now. So why is this a perfectly acceptable approach when using script, but not acceptable when not using script?

I’m also aware of the discussions about mixing content, such as SVG in MathML, and MathML in SVG, and HTML5 in both. I made another copy of the example, this time inserting an HTML5 paragraph element into the SVG. Since the syntax I used was proper XML (no unquoted attributes, closing paragraph), it parsed without an error, but the paragraph didn’t display. Of course not, because there is no paragraph element within SVG, and the SVG is treated as an SVG document, not an SVG in HTML document. The thing is, though: the paragraph wouldn’t do anything in SVG within an XHTML document today.

However, returning to the example I linked earlier, I did insert HTML into the SVG using the SVG foreignObject element, with proper syntax, and as you can see, the HTML does display correctly. In fact, if you scroll down, I also created a second SVG element, this time with MathML as the foreignObject contents, which renders fine in Firefox, and partially everywhere else, depending on MathML support.

All of this works, and works well, when using SVGWeb. You can even access namespaced Rdf/XML elements in the XML, using the proper namespace functionality, but the page still validate using All of the portentous grumblings about the horrors of mixing HTML and XML just don’t ring as ominously when one can see that, contrary to the dire warnings, and tales of potential woe, the two can mix. Unfortunately, the only way to mix the two, now, is to be dependent on a Google JavaScript library. Don’t get me wrong: I’m grateful for the library. So grateful, in fact, that I don’t recommend the use of SVG inline with HTML unless you use this library.

I just don’t like being dependent on JavaScript for that which should be and can be, natively supported in a browser. This approach requires library intercession for all instances of SVG use, which means the SVG markup won’t be accessible to server-side applications that disregard the script element. This JavaScript dependency also means the SVG won’t be visible if scripting is disabled, even though SVG does not require scripting support. When scripting is enabled, the approach is still inherently inaccessible.

These are the two choices facing us with SVG in HTML: SVG/XML treated as HTML, and all the problems this causes; or SVG/XML treated as XML, but requiring JavaScript.


I’m writing an article on using SVG for site decoration and backgrounds. Since SVG is now allowed in HTML via HTML5, it seemed a good time to introduce people to the concept. Especially since the nightly build of Firefox 3.7 has a configuration option (“about:configure”) where you can enable HTML5.

To test the new option in the Firefox nightly, I created a simple file, with a SVG red circle that can be resized with JavaScript. (HTML5 version and XHTML version).

Clicking on the circle will resize it, but also throws up some alerts outputting information about metadata in the element, including namespace, prefix, and element tag name. I wanted to see how Firefox parsed the SVG via HTML, as compared to XHTML. After all, it’s not unusual for SVG files to have namespaced entities in them, for metadata (Creative Commons RDF/XML), or even placed by a tool (Inkscape).

The results are about what I expected. The namespace, prefix, and tag element name all displayed according to their namespace goodness in XHTML, but the namespace didn’t work with the HTML parsing.

To me, this isn’t a showstopper. People who have been working with the DOM and JavaScript have had to deal with differences through the years, such as event handling differences between IE and the rest of the browser world. You just check to see MIME type of page, and either expect to look for the localname as a mashup between prefix and local name, or it’s handled properly.

It’s a little *challenging because prefixes aren’t always going to be the same. However, for the most part, if you need to access the data, you can either control the prefix used, or you can work through the differences without having to resort to rocket science. I rather expect both Dojo and jQuery to incorporate this functionality, once HTML5 gets wider use.

I also have been trying the new SVGWeb product from Google, and fine folks like Brad Neuberg, which enables SVG in HTML for all browsers, including IE. It does this by incorporating a JavaScript library that implements most of the SVG in Flash. Since Flash is pretty much ubiquitous, folks won’t have to install something new for the page to work.

I’ve used SVGWeb to manage the background image for The SVG Feed, which is now formatted as HTML5, and served as HTML. It works nicely in Safari, Opera, Firefox, and even SVG-challenged Chrome, but IE has a problem. Unfortunately, height and width are handled differently with IE as compared to the other browsers, so the values are coming up null in IE. However, Brad has added this as a bug, and I expect this page will work in the next iteration of the product.

Now, there are some differences between SVG parsed by an HTML5-enabled browser, and using SVGWeb. My earlier example embedded SVG directly in the page, but SVGWeb expects an inline SVG element to be enclosed in a script tag:

<script script type="image/svg+xml">

Embedded SVG in a script tag won’t work if you’re only dependent on HTML5 parsers. However, SVGWeb also works with HTML5 parsers, so you’re set, either way.

Until all browsers support SVG, in HTML or XHTML, SVGWeb provides the first real breakthrough in using SVG on the web. And here you thought that SVG was only good for **Scrapbooking.

*It’s a little more challenging for server-side applications parsing the web page, but again, the differences aren’t insurmountable.

**The background SVG I’m using for my site originated as a scrapbook pattern for the cutting machine, Cricut.

Maxwell’s Silver Hammer: RDFa and HTML5’s Microdata

Being a Beatles fan, I must admit to being intrigued about the new Beatles box set that will be available in September. I have several Beatles albums, but not all. None of the CDs I own have been re-mastered or re-mixed, including one of my favorite songs, from Abby Road: Maxwell’s Silver Hammer:

Joan was quizzical; Studied pataphysical
Science in the home.
Late nights all alone with a test tube.
Oh, oh, oh, oh.

Maxwell Edison, majoring in medicine,
Calls her on the phone.
"Can I take you out to the pictures,
Joa, oa, oa, oan?"

But as she's getting ready to go,
A knock comes on the door.

Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Came down upon her head.
Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Made sure that she was dead.

I love the chorus, Bang! Bang! Maxwell’s silver hammer came down upon her head…

Speaking of Bang! Bang! Jeni Tennison returned from vacation, surveyed the ongoing, and seemingly unending, discussion on RDFa as compared to HTML5’s Microdata, and wrote HTML5/RDFa Arguments. It’s a well-written look at some of the issues, primarily from the viewpoint of a heavy RDFa user, working to understand the perspective of an HTML5 advocate.

Jeni lists all of the pushback against RDFa that I’m aware of, including the reluctance to use namespacing, because of copy and paste issues, as well as the use of prefixes, such as FOAF, rather than just spelling out the FOAF URI. Jeni also mentions the issue of namespaces being handled differently in the DOM (Document Object Model) when the document is served as HTML, rather than XHTML.

The whole namespace issue goes beyond just RDFa, and touches on the broader issue of distributed extensibility, which will, in my opinion, probably push back the Last Call date for HTML5. It may seem like accessibility issues are the real kicker, but that’s primarily because no one wants to look at the elephant in the corner that is extensibility. Right now, Microsoft is tasked to provide a proposal for this issue—yes, you read that right, Microsoft. When that happens, an interesting discussion will ensue. And unlike other issues, whatever happens will take more than a few hours to integrate into HTML5.

I digress, though. At the end of her writing, Jeni summarizes her opinion of the RDFa/namespace/HtmL5/Microdata situation with the following:

Really I’m just trying to draw attention to the fact that the HTML5 community has very reasonable concerns about things much more fundamental than using prefix bindings. After redrafting this concluding section many times, the things that I want to say are:

  • so wouldn’t things be better if we put as much effort into understanding each other as persuading each other (hah, what an idealist!) so we will make more progress in discussions if we focus on the underlying arguments so we need to talk in a balanced way about the advantages and disadvantages of RDF or, in a more realistic frame of mind:
  • so it’s just not going to happen for HTML5
  • so why not just stop arguing and use the spare time and energy doing?
  • so why not demonstrate RDF’s power in real-world applications?

My own opinion is that I don’t care that RDFa is not integrated into HTML5. In fact, I don’t think RDFa belongs in HTML5. I think a separate document detailing how to integrate RDFa into HTML5, as happened with XHTML, is the better approach.

Having said that, I do not believe that Microdata belongs in the HTML5 document, either. The HTML5 document is already problematical, bloated, and overly complex. It encompasses too much, a fault of the charter, as much as anything else. Removing the entire Microdata section would help, as well as several other changes, but we’ll focus on the Microdata section for the moment.

The problem with the Microdata section is that it is a competing semantic web approach to RDFa. Unlike competition in the marketplace, competition in standards will actually slow down adoption of the standards, as people take a sit-back and see what happens, approach. Now, when we’re finally are seeing RDFa incorporated into Google, into a large CMS like Drupal 7, and other uses, now is not the time to send a message to people that “Oops, the W3C really doesn’t know what the fuck it wants. Better wait until it gets its act together. ” Because that is the message being sent.

“RDFa and Microdata” is not the same as “RDFa and Microformats”. RDFa, or I should say, RDF, has co-existed peacefully with microformats for years because the two are really complementary, not competitive, specifications. Both can be used at a site. Because Microformat development is centralized, it will never have the extensibility that RDF/RDFa provides, and the number of vocabularies will always, by necessity, be limited. Microformats, on the other hand, are easier to use than RDFa, though parsing Microdata is another thing. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. Regardless, there’s no harm to using both, and no confusion, either. Microformats are managed by one organization, RDFa by the W3C.

Microdata, though, is meant to be used in place of RDFa. But Microdata is not implemented in any production capable tool, has not been thoroughly checked out or tested, has not had any real-world implementation that I know of, has no support from any browser or vendor, and isn’t even particularly liked by the HTML WG membership, including the author. It provides only a subset of the functionality that RDFa provides, and necessitates the introduction of several predefined vocabularies, all of which could, and most likely will, end up out of sync with the organizations responsible for the extra-HTML5 vocabulary specification. And let’s not forget that Microdata makes use of the reversed DNS identifier that sprang up, like a plague of locusts, in HTML5, based on the seeming assumption that people will find the following:


Easier to understand and use then the following:

Which, heaven knows, is not something any of us are familiar with these last 15-20 years.

RDFa and HTML5/Microdata, otherwise known as Issue 76 in the HTML 5 Tracker database. I understand where Jeni is coming from when she writes about finding a common ground. Finding common ground, though, presupposes that all participants come to the party on equal footing. That both sides will need to listen, to compromise, to give a little, to get a little. This doesn’t exist with the HTML5 effort.

Where the RDFa in XHTML specification was a group effort, Microdata is the product of one person’s imagination. One single person. However, that one single person has complete authorship control over the HTML 5 document, and so what he wants is what gets added: not what reflects common usage, not what reflects the W3C guidelines, and certainly not what exists in the world, today.

While this uneven footing exists, I can’t see how we can find common ground. So then we look at Jeni’s next set of suggestions, which basically boil down to: because of the HTML WG charter, nothing is going to happen with HTML5, so perhaps we should stop beating our heads against the wall, and focus, instead, on just using RDFa, and to hell with HTML5 and microdata.

Bang! Bang!

I am very close to this. I had started my book on the issues I have with HTML5, and how I would change the specification, but after a while, a person gets tired of being shut out or shut down. I’m less interested in continuing to “bang my head against the wall”, as Jeni so eloquently put it.

But then I get an email this week, addressed to several folks, asking about the introduction of Microdata: so what does the W3C recommend, then? What should people use? Where should they focus their time?

Confusion. Confusion because the HTML5 specification is being drafted specifically to counter several initiatives that the W3C has been nurturing over the last decade: Microdata over RDF/RDFa; HTML over XHTML; Reverse DNS identifiers over namespaces, and URIs; the elimination of non-visual cues, not only for metadata, but also for the visually challenged. And respect. There is no respect for the W3C among many in the HTML Working Group. And I know I lose more respect for the organization the closer we get to HTML5 Last Call.

In fact, HTML Working Group is a bit of a misnomer. We don’t have HTML anymore, we have a Web OS.

We don’t have a simple HTML document, we have a document that contains the DOM, garbage collection, the Canvas object and a 2D API, a definition for web browser objects, interactive elements, drag and drop, cross-document communication, channel messaging, Microdata, several pre-defined vocabularies, probably more JavaScript than the ECMAScript standard, and before they were split off, client-side SQL, web worker threads, and storage. I’m sure there’s a partridge in a pear tree somewhere in there, but I still haven’t made it completely through the document. It’s probably in Section 10. I know there’s talk of extending to the document to include a 3D API, and who knows what else.

There’s a lot of stuff in HTML5. What isn’t in the HTML5 document is a clean, straightforward description of the HTML or XHTML syntax, and a clearly defined path for people to move to HTML5 from other specifications, as well as a way of being able to cleanly extend the specification—something that has been the cornerstone of both HTML and XHTML in the past. There’s no room for the syntax, in HTML5. It got shoved down by Microdata and the 2D API. There’s no room for the past, the old concepts of deprecated and obsolete have been replaced by such clear terms as “Conforming but obsolete”. And there’s certainly no room for future extensibility. After all, there’s always HTML6, and HTML7, …, HTMLN—all based on the same open, encompassing attitude that has guided HTML5 to where it is today.

If we don’t like what we see, we do have options. We can create our own HTML5 documents, and submit “spec text” for a vote. But what if it’s the whole document that needs work? That many of the pieces are good, but don’t belong in the parent document, or even in the HTML WG?

The DOM should be split out into its own section and should take all of the DOM/interactive, and browser object stuff with it. The document should be re-focused on HTML, without this mash-up of HTML syntax, scripting references, and API calls that exists now. The XHTML section should be fleshed out and separated out into its own section, too, if no other reason to perhaps reassure people that no, XHTML is not going away. We should also be reminded that XHTML is not just for browsers—in fact, the eBook industry is dependent on XHTML. And it doesn’t need Canvas, browser objects, or drag and drop.

Canvas should also be split out, to a completely separate group whose interest is graphics, not markup. As for Microdata, at this point, I don’t care if Microdata is continued or not, but it has no place in HTML5. If it’s good, split it out, and let it prove itself against RDFa, directly.

The document needs cleaning up. There are dangling and orphaned references to objects from Web Workers and Storage still littering the specification. It hops around between HTML syntax and API call, with nothing providing any clarity as to the rhyme or reason for such jumping about. Sure there’s a lot of good stuff in the document, but it needs organization, clean up, and a good healthy dose of fresh air, and even a fresher perspective.

Accessibility shouldn’t be added begrudgingly, woodenly, resentfully. It should be integrated into the HTML, not just pasted on in order to quiet folks because LC is coming up.

The concepts of deprecated and obsolete should be returned, to ensure a sense of continuity with HTML 4. And no, these did not originate with HTML. In fact, the use of deprecated and obsolete have been fairly common with many different technologies. I can guarantee nothing but the HTML5 document has a term like “conforming but obsolete”. I know, I searched high and low in Google for it.

And we need extensibility, and no, I don’t mean Microdata and reverse DNS identifiers. If extensibility was part of the system, folks who want to use RDFa could use RDFa, and not have to beg, hat in hand, to be allowed to sit at the HTML 5 table. This endless debate wouldn’t be happening, and everyone could win. Extensibility is good that way. Extensibility has brought us RDFa, SVG, MathML, and, in past specifications, will continue to bring whatever the future may bring.

whatever the future may bring…

Finding common ground? Walk a mile in each other’s moccasins? Meet mano a mano? Provide alternative specification text?

Bang! Bang!

Jeni’s a pretty smart lady.

Forests I have loved

By accident and restless choice, I am the ultimate stone that gathers no moss and have lived all over this country. In each location, I’ve hiked whatever wilderness the area boasts, and one doesn’t truly know how beautiful this country is until you’ve walked the fields and forests, beaches and rivers.

In the Northwest, the wet rainforests of the Peninsula be-grudge every inch of the path and at times you feel as if the forest will swallow you whole, so rich and close it is. If one is fanciful, and the rainforests generate fancy, one would think to look closely at the bushes, to see if a set of eyes looks back. Cold water droplets down the back of one’s collar area is a typical Northwest rainforest experience. Elsewhere in the region, the forests are less dense but no less wild: whether walking the foothills of The Cascades, or the high hills of the Inland Empire.

As a break from the forests, one can walk the desert-like petrified forests, the rich meadows, or the beaches of the Oregon coast, getting lost among the rocks and the tidal pools, to climb sandy dunes and rocky cliffs. I have walked a thousand miles of Washington and Oregon through the years, and every mile is unique.

Roosevelt lake a few miles from where I grew up

In Arizona, the forests are in the north and consist mainly of Ponderosa and scrub pine. In the red rock country, the trees fight for a life among the rugged rocks, their green a brilliant counter-point to the rust reds of the ground, and the azure blue of the skies. In the Arizona deserts, one can turn about once, twice, and get lost if not careful, and during the summer, the wilderness is unforgiving of fools. But, oh the beauty of an Arizona desert in the Spring, with flowering cacti and cool breezes, snakes warming themselves in the sun, lizards scampering about. And the area is so rich with minerals that one can find entire valleys literally sprinkled with jasper or black or white onyx.

One might expect fierce wilderness in Vermont, but you’d be surprised. The entire state was clear cut at one time, and the trees are of a uniform sameness and type and size. But in the winter, when the snow is on the ground and the lakes are frozen, that’s when Vermont shines for me. The irony though is that there are few places to hike easily in Vermont. In the winter, on Grand Isle, the local high school opened its doors in the evenings for community members to walk the corridors, get a bit of exercise and socialize. When snow is 4 feet deep, you don’t just cut across the country for a bit of a hike. Unless you’re a red fox.

Once, when I stayed at a bed and breakfast in the central part of the state, I found a trail made by a snow trailer and was able to walk to the top of the hill the B & B was next to. The day was sunny and cold, and fresh snow was pure white, all about me. As I walked further and further up the hill, all sounds fell away until the only thing you can hear is your own heart.

Trail in Muir Woods, CA

In Massachusetts, there are miles of coasts to walk if you can find them. The water is warmer than the Pacific but more temperamental, and there are few experiences finer than to stand on a beach during a summer storm in New England. Wet. Truly wet.

I prefer hiking, but it’s hard to resist the lure of the Emerald Necklace in Boston for walking — the series of connected parks that traverse the city. In Boston, you’re always aware that the streets you walk were once walked by the likes of John Hancock, Samual Adams, and Paul Revere. It was in one part of the Necklace that I walked along a stream and a red-tailed hawk landed on a branch only a few feet away. Right in the middle of the city.

In Montana, the green forest gives way to mile after mind-numbing mile of cattle ranches before hitting rocky mountains that tear through the earth in jagged layers, dangerous to walk, beautiful to see. And In Idaho, the lakes rest like blue sapphires nestled in verdant green velvet.

In Northern California, you can walk among Redwood trees so tall that no other life grows on the forest floor, because no sunlight ever makes it past the trees. In the distance, you can hear birds singing, but not a sound at the forest floor. As you walk, you can reach out and pat a tree that was born about the time when Abraham gave birth to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Rocky Mountain forest

Here in Missouri, where mighty rivers have carved a culture unique to this region, of blues and banjos, where north and south meet and co-exist, this is a land of many faces: river fronts give way to wild mountain, which gives way to city, which gives away to parks absolutely unique in this country. One can walk every day in the year and still not touch all the trails and paths this state supports.

The mountains here are smaller than in the Northwest, but no less wild and no less fierce with brambles and tangles and rocks and soft clay ready to trip you up at every step. Here is where one is likely to meet white-tailed deer and beaver and black bear in addition to squirrel and opposom and raccoon. The bird life is as rich as the landscape, with bluebirds and red cardinals and mockingbirds and finch, hawk, eagle, and red-winged blackbird, all within a few miles of the city.

However, the real magic in this simple land is to walk the same path in all seasons; to see the land in winter, only hinted at behind lush trees and bushes in the summer; to watch a whole valley suddenly become dusted with green after a spring rain; to stand at the edge of the forest and see color that would shame the finest painters as the leaves of dozens of different trees of different heights and shapes change into their autumn colors, of gold and rust, pink and scarlet, with a hint here and there of defiant, stubborn green; to stand beneath a canopy of trees as golden leaves cascade down around you.

Trail in the fall