December 20th, 2002

Pessimists see the world from its dark side — always the glass half empty. They never see that the world can be made better, that problems can be solved. They are not constructive, though they aren't destructive.

Idealists, on the other hand, only see the light. In their world, the sun always shines (except for that bit of rain needed for the trees), the birds always sing, and humanity exists in harmony. They can be pleasant. They can be exhausting. They can be destructive.

The idealist is destructive where the pessimist isn't by introducing change without realization of the consequences. They say, "Look at this wonderful thing I have given you!", but don't provide the user manual. After you've managed to blow up a city block, when you look for the idealist they've moved on to another part of the world, to drop yet another idealism bomb on some unsuspecting poor sod.

Idealists. You gotta love em, because if you didn't you'd want to strangle them.

Where this is all leading is the release this week of the Creative Commons licenses: those digital goodies that one can attach to our creative efforts to let others know if they can use these efforts in defined ways. Collaboration and community, 101. Like our idealist in the earlier scenario, the Creative Commons have dropped this little bomb in our lap, and then left it up to us to determine how to use these things, and what they really mean.

The courts of this land understand copyright law. They have rules and statutes and exceptions and publications and writings and briefs and a host of other stuff too mind numbing to contemplate. However, what it all boils down to is: you created it? You didn't create this for someone else? Then you own the copyright on it, and all that this means. By default.

So, what if you don't want to copyright your work? What if you want to provide the work for the good of humanity? How do you let others know that, it's okay — they can use this work in their own effort?

According to the Creative Commons folks, we attach a CC License to the work that basically offers some of our rights to others. For instance, if I create a work, such as this weblog page, you can duplicate it if I attach a license granting this right; Or a different license might grant you the right to duplicate a post, but only if you don't publish the material for commercial purposes.

The concept sounds great. It also sounds familiar if you've worked with software at all.

In the comp-tech industry we've had the ability to attach provisions governing the duplication, modification, and distribution of software for some time. We've had the GNU General Public License, the BSD License, the Open Source License and so on. More importantly, we've had little trouble understanding what these licenses mean because software source code is a resource that can only be shared in a finite number of ways.

When a license says that source can be used but not distributed, this means that you can use it in your applications, but not if you're going to be distributing these applications to others. I can use Movable Type but I can't take the core functionality of MT, such as MT.pm and the other Perl modules, and incorporate these into other applications without first getting formal permission. If a license says that you can distribute the source but must include the original copyright and license information, again, not hard to figure out.

The thing about software and licensing is that the licenses are created specifically for a given resource to meet a given set of parameters. Because of this finite use, interpretation of the license usually isn't a problem, even with IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer).

The Creative Commons licenses, though, are a different beastie. The concepts are virtually the same — create something and grant rights to the public domain for the betterment of all. As with the software licenses, no one can deny that the concept isn't grand, and noble, and even necessary if we're to share in this highly litigous society.

However, the Creative Commons licenses, at least as they've been introduced have already caused confusion as to how they're to be used and implemented. And not only is this not going to help society at large, it could cause additional problems rather than solving existing ones.

An excellent example of the type of confusion that can result is the discussion in the RSS-Dev list about applying CCL to RSS feeds. The CCL information is provided in RDF/XML, which means it can be easily incorporated into other RDF/XML documents. Such as RSS 1.0. Technically, this isn't complicated and I've incorporated it into one one of my RDF/XML-based applications.

However, RSS feeds are nothing more than representations of original material, grouped with other like representational material and meant to be processed by tools for one reason or another. They are not considered to be duplicates of the material — or at least, this is our general understanding of RSS. And general understanding or acceptance or assumption of a thing has legal standing, even in a nitpicky society as ours (lawyers in the office are welcome to correct me on this). XML aspirin.

But is my interpretation of what is an RSS feed really a general understanding? To some, RSS feeds are scraped essence of weblog, without the pretty packaging — true representations of the 'weblog content'. When a CCL is included within the feed and pointed to the original source, does this mean that the RSS feed itself remains at full copyright? Or does the copyright also apply to the feed?

If the CCL is attached to the feed itself, does this mean that tools must now honor this information and check the license to determine if it can be duplicated? Does the license have to be duplicated in addition to the feed? What about cases where the copyright in an RSS file differs from the one in the source — which applies? I asked this at the discussion group and someone thought the two licenses would be ANDed together, which means that the rules would be merged and interpreted as one license. This answer, to me, represents much of the danger with CC licenses — we see them and interpret them as a technology because of the format of the RDF/XML to describe them, but we don't understand the legality of the resulting actions.

It doesn't take a lawyer to see that two licenses that conflict in specific grants are going to increase the confusion as to use of the source, rather than decrease it. More so than exists without a CCL.

With RSS feeds is there is a kind of implied consent associated with the feed. If you didn't want the feed to be consumed, you wouldn't produce it and you won't leave it where it could be accessed. A variation on you can't complain if people look in to your living room when you leave the drapes open.

This is no different than the implied consent with web pages. You put content on the web to be viewed, and unless you password protect the pages, they're open for viewing by all.

You there! Did you know that this page is copyrighted? Well, it is! Did I give you permission to read this page? Well, did I?

You're still reading. Did I give you permission to continue reading? Well?

Dammit, you're still reading!

See what I mean by implicit consent? By putting this page online, I'm granting you the implicit right to read it, and other laws, such as Fair Use, give you the right to pick juicy parts out and duplicate these to your weblogs for your own posts. A very workable system. Until now.

The problems with Net accessible resources has little to do with material stored as text and structured with markup of some form and all to do with resources based in other formats. Formats such as images, video, and music. Especially music. When can I copy a music file and put it on my site? When can I distribute it? Can I alter it?

These are the types of resources that appear in the news and cause a great deal of havoc. These are the resources that Creative Commons Licenses were meant to be applied to — as a signal to others that this photograph, video, MP3 file, or writing (as separate from web page formatting) can be duplicated, or modified, or distributed and no one's going to come after your butt with a mean, hungry legal person.

The confustion about CC Licenses occurs not because we don't understand the intent behind the licenses, but because we don't understand how to interpret the use of the licenses. This is no different than any other aspect of law.

By provided RDF/XML to desribe the license, the Creative Commons opened the door to including license information in any document formatted with markup, regardless of the appropriateness of the action, and our understanding of such actions. Such as in RSS feeds. Like this web page. Even extending to software, as Jon Udell demonstrated with his LibraryLookup functionality. Looking closer at Jon's use of the CCL, a question arises as to what exactly Jon is covering in the license: is it the LibraryLookup function? Or the contents of the web page where the license is embedded? This can't be understood just by the fact that the license is embedded in the same HTML page as the desciption of LibraryLookup.

My CCL embedded in this page doesn't provide answers as to whether I'm granting the rights described in the license to the writing in this post, or to the page in its entirety (formatting and all) or even to the style sheet and layout used. I've not provided clear information as to what the license covers. What's worse, guess wrong and you've violated my copyright. And I'll come after your butt with a mean, hungry lawyer. (Nah. Not really.)

We're just as likely to include the XML first, and ask why later. And weblogging only propagates this with its 'meme of the minute' adaption of anything 'new'. After all, the RDF/XML doesn't prevent the page from validating And the license information validates in RSS, as well. Legally, this and a 252.25 will buy you an hour with a lawyer and a cup of coffee.

Sam thinks the Creative Commons licenses are genius. I disagree. By releasing these licenses without providing more detailed understanding of how they work (other than a nifty little Flash movie, a lot of grand words about sharing and the greater good, and links to other indirectly related material), and by releasing license information in an XML format almost guaranteeing that the licenses will be attached to documents formatted with XML, regardless of fit or not, the Creative Commons has released a bomb on the idealists among us. Let's just hope they don't walk away and leave us to blow ourselves up.

Update

From Lessig's weblog (Lawrence Lessig is the chairman of the Creative Commons):

Matt Croydon wonders about how CC licenses will interact with software. The answer is that they won't. We share RMS's concern that there is a proliferation of licenses in software. Our view was that there was a dearth for other creative content. Thus we start outside the software world. For now, at least.

Question for Lessig et al: Define software? And where does something like RSS fit into this?

Second Update

Lawrence Lessig modified his original post, which now says:

Matt Croydon wonders about how CC licenses will interact with software. In a careless earlier version of this, I said they won't. Sam Ruby suggests the most I could mean by that is that our energy will be directed elsewhere. Indeed, that's the most I mean. We share RMS's concern that there is a proliferation of licenses in software. And our view was that there was a dearth for other creative content. Thus we start outside the software world. But creative reuse of creative content is what CC is all about. My apologies for any confusion.

He also made a brief comment in his weblog to our questions:

Great questions all, and I'm sorry I wasn't clear before. We don't mean to forbid the use with software. We just didn't write the licenses with software in mind. But if the license fits, wear it. Obviously, adding this into RSS is a critically useful adaptation, and we encourage it.

I wrote (correcting my usual burningbirdisms):

Appreciate your additional, comment but unfortunately, this raises more questions.

In a post I wrote on this (at http://weblog.burningbird.net/fires/000766.htm ), I brought up the fact that, for weblogs at least, individual posts could have different licenses attached, granting each different rights as to republication.

However, RSS feeds are template based and automated. So the RSS template would be setup to grant public domain access to the text of an entry, automatically, but the actual entry itself may be much more restrictive.

A person republishing the text does so based on the license in the RSS feeds, which is counter to the intent of the person who wrote the text.

Can you not see the potential problems of this in court? In fact, couldn't this open up the door for potential lawsuits against the tool maker as well as the person who re-published the work? (Worst case scenario.)

Additionally, you say it's a critically useful adapation. Why? Saying so on your part doesn't explain to us why this is so, and this type of explanation could help us understand how to effectively apply license in other circumstances.

And you also say the CC encourages incorporation of license data into RSS feeds. Why?

I know there's discussion about being able to search on this license information on the web, looking for public domain material. However, this seems a case of putting the reuse capability before the content.

Wouldn't one search for content first, and then look at license? And the license would be attached to the content.

Also, RSS feeds have no persistence. An item rolls off the feed just as quickly as it rolls on. RSS feeds really wouldn't be effective sources of persistent data for future discovery.

I'm sorry, and I appreciate your answer. But all you've done is raise more questions.

I did find L. Lessig's response to be disappointing. He says one moment that CC licenses are not for software, and then the next says, sure, if it fits use it. This makes me hesitate to use the CC licenses more rather than less.

Isn't trapping inconsistencies something we take pride of in weblogging? And isn't this turn-about inconsistent? And even more confusing?

As has been said elsewhere — we have software licenses carefully crafted for the industry. I can see no reason at all why one would use the CC license, admittedly not crafted for the industry, in place of ones that have been used for years, with success, and that are specifically for the industry. Doing so, just to do so is ludicrous. Forward motion for the sake of forward motion.

As for the RSS, issue — this only strengthens my opinion that licenses should not be used in RSS feeds. If the reason is to duplicate the license attached for a posting, then this will fail because RSS templates and tools act on all items in a RSS feed, not individual ones. The license attached to the individual posting may end up being different than the license attached to the RSS item.

Additionally, if the purpose of adding license information to the entry is so that a site, interested in republishing the item in total doesn't have to return to the original source, I can't see benefit. Not one that overcomes the confusion about implementation (i.e. in RSS 2.0, CC licenses can be applied to the 'channel' as well as individual entries — and exactly what does this mean? That one can republish the entire page of postings?)

And if a person does republish an entry from a posting, they are required by the CC license to also republish the license. This means that all aggregators that publicly publish their results (meerkat, news is free and so on) will have to duplicate the license info with the entry.

The CC site states that one reason we would include the RDF/XML with a resource to be shared is to allow one to search the web for public domain resources. But this makes little sense. Wouldn't one search for specific content, and then check the license? Regardless, how would the RSS feed participate in this? The items contained in the feeds fall off the feed as quickly as they enter it.

I raise these questions here rather than at the RSS-dev discussion lists, primarily because I've been shut down in this debate twice on that list. I won't try for 'third time's the charm'.

One can debate the validity of my questions. But mine won't be the only questions, or comments, or concerns. There needs to be a mechanism that allows public debate on the CC products, and one that is promoted at the highest level of the CC website.

I appreciate what the Creative Commons folks are trying to do. And I don't fault the intent. However, I think that the execution of same requires an interactive element that doesn't exist at the moment. And this will ultimately damage the credibility of both the CC and the CC licenses. IMHO.

Final Update

Sam has also interjected a note, based in comments attached to his posting when I repeated what I said here, in response to his posting. I think his reply, and my response to his reply says all I need to say in regards to the "Coders Only Club".

Exclusion based on membership has never appealed to me. Whether it's based on race, gender, religion…or technology and applications thereof.

And one should be able to express opinions about CC licenses, and RSS, and other technologies without having to join the COC club.

Comments
1
Sam Ruby - 9:21 am 12/20/2002

God is an optimist.

Despite a Catholic upbringing, I'm not a particularly pious individual. So the eyecatching opener of this comment is merely shorthand. What I mean to express is the sentiment that my kids were not delivered into this world with a user manual. For that matter, neither was I, or if I was, I seem to have misplaced it.

That doesn't mean that I won't pursue life to the fullest. Because, I too, am an optimist.

P.S. Kaboom.

2

If you want even more cause for pessimism, take a look at "Extensible Rights Markup Language" (XRML), perhaps better described as "Patent-Encumbered Digital Rights Constraint Management Language".

http://www.bootstrap.org/lists/ba-ohs-talk/0205/msg00036.html

Unfortunately I can't find the slides for the keynote that Pam Samuelson gave at XML 2002, but that would probably have been a depressing experience even for Sam. The abstract is at:

http://www.idealliance.org/papers/xml02/dx_xml02/papers/03-00-02/03-00-02.html

It was a fantastic keynote, and the Samuelson Clinic and the Society for Biblical Literature are fighting for the light, but ouch.

For more on the Technical Committee, see:
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/rights/

I'm sure someone from XRML will come along and explain how wonderful it really is sooner or later, and disperse all these dark clouds.

3
Mark - 9:37 am 12/20/2002

I'm failing to see why this is CC's problem or fault. There's been a way to embed machine-readable copyright information in HTML pages since at least 1997 (HTML 4), possibly earlier.

[link rel="copyright" href="http://url/to/license"]

cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#h-6.12

Why all the hand-wringing now?

4
Shelley - 9:51 am 12/20/2002

Sam, there actually is a users manual associated with your kids, but it's written in your genes, and defined by society rather than being printed out on paper. And there are laws governing your maintenance of your children.

I hope I'm not being pessimistic as much as I'm being a realist, Simon. I know that 'pushing back' at an organization that only 'seeks to do good' is going to drop on my head. Again. However, I actually want the concept of CCL to work, which means that the CC needs to rethink their methods of release and dessimination.

For just the reasons described, Mark. The CC provides the license, it is up to them to clarify the use of said licenses. They can start by answering the questions posed in my posting, and in other places.

"Push back" is a challenge, not a weapon. I'm challenging the CC to provide clarification by raising questions now rather than later after dessimination of the CCLs.

5

Shelley writes:
"Push back" is a challenge, not a weapon.

Beautiful! I'll have to keep that phrase in mind for future adventures in various fields. Seems like a lovely answer to "Stop Energy" critics.

6
Karl - 10:38 am 12/20/2002

Have you e-mailed them to ask these questions and not gotten satisfactory answers?

7
Shelley - 10:42 am 12/20/2002

Karl, these questions were asked in the RSS dev group, of which Aaron Swartz (creative commons data person, and maker of the RDF/XML) is a voting member.

The CC folks know the questions being raised.

8
Sam Ruby - 10:53 am 12/20/2002

Perhaps they are planting a seed. When living in a world full of pessimists, somethings that's the only course of action that makes sense.

http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/946.html

9
Shelley - 10:58 am 12/20/2002

Sam, in the legal world there is no 'seed' planting. There is clarification or confusion.

Not all forward motion is positive. I'd rather see people hesitate on using the CCL, and the CC open a dialog with the community (through a weblog with comments or a discussion group or like), then to continue using the CCL, perhaps incorrectly, all based on wonderful sounding words and a cute movie.

I appreciate the nobility of the Creative Commons intent and effort. But I'd appreciate it more if they combined that with an interactive element that allows us all to understand better what it all means.

10
Shelley - 11:06 am 12/20/2002

Of course, I realize that I'm speaking as someone who is not a member of the COC club, and therefore my opinions have less validity.

Excuse me while I go find a napkin on which to scratch some code…

11
Karl - 11:11 am 12/20/2002

Maybe not in the legal world… but in the political world there most certainly is.

I'm reading "Founding Brothers" by Joseph Ellis.

Man there was a whole lot of seed planting going on!

And in the developer world I know this to be true as well.

BTW - I'm not saying this to disagree with you on asking those great questions Shelley. They need to be answered and your idea for them to build a bridge in understanding (the weblog) sounds great too.

12
Aaron Swartz - 11:38 am 12/20/2002

Sorry, I rarely read the RSS-DEV list anymore. But by coincidence, I found this blog posting. Most of your questions are covered in the manual.

metadata/contact explains that questions should be sent to the list or to me. I read that list and would be happy to answer questions sent there.

"When a license says that source can be used but not distributed, this means that you can use it in your applications, but not if you're going to be distributing these applications to others." US law permits you to privately modify and use software you've legally obtained for whatever purpose, whether or not the license or shrinkwrap agreement says otherwise.

In RSS 1.0 RSS items/channels describe whatever is in the rdf:about attribute. If that's a web page, then obviously the cc:license element inside the item/channel element states that the webpage is so licensed. If you're not using RDF, then ask your format publisher what it means.

"does this mean that tools must now honor this information and check the license to determine if it can be duplicated?" All CC licenses permit redistribution. Furthermore, in many instances redistribution may be fair use. All CC licenses also prohibit using technological means to prevent legal activities. Since such a fair use would be legal, such a technological means to prevent it would violate the license, I suspect. In any case, it's certainly not recommended.

"Does the license have to be duplicated in addition to the feed?" I don't know what this means.

"What about cases where the copyright in an RSS file differs from the one in the source — which applies?" One applies to the RSS file and one applies to the source. What did you expect?

"the two licenses would be ANDed together, which means that the rules would be merged and interpreted as one license." Whenever you have two license options they are always ORed together. This is stated several times on the site and is obvious from the RDF.

Your "implied consent" theory seems to be completely unrelated to the law. It's perfectly legal to accept a copy of a webpage that a server gives to you. Copyright doesn't make it illegal to read or modify something you own.

For most purposes, we can consider music and video identical to text with regards to copyright law. You still have the right to listen or watch something you've legally obtained.

Maybe these things wouldn't blow up on you if you did a little more reading and applied some common sense.

13
Shelley - 11:54 am 12/20/2002

Aaron, that's a load of shit.

First, where is this in the documentation. Among the numerous links?

And when you have a license in an RSS feed and one in a resource pointed to by the license, you say or'd. Then which one applies?

What happens if full content is duplicated in an RSS feed — does the resource license apply to the material in the feed, or only to resource?

We're asking questions, and you're saying "read it and apply common sense". That is not helpful.

And unless you can show me your law degree, I think it's time we heard from the legal people, not another techie giving his interpretation.

14
Shelley - 12:05 pm 12/20/2002

However, I did just find the link to the discussion list — in the technology section under contact.

Let me carefully repeat — this is not about the technology. This is about interpretation of the licenses given the examples beyond those few described in the CC.

This is not for a technologist to answer, but the people who provided the legal counseling behind the implementation of said licenses.

15
Karl - 12:06 pm 12/20/2002

I don't think this has "blown up" on anybody. They are interesting tough questions that users and not visionaries like myself would like to have a better understanding of.

Shelley… maybe this site can help: http://grep.law.harvard.edu/

Maybe they can help to clarify these kind of things?

16
Karl - 12:06 pm 12/20/2002

non-visionaries like myself :) hehe.

17
Shelley - 12:11 pm 12/20/2002

Karl, I appreciate this. But I have no interest in trying to figure out how to interpret the use of the CCL by hunting around at Harvard, though that is a nice resource, and thanks for pointing this out.

I would say that the creative commons have an obligation to clarify things. And they won't if everyone plays "Barney" and goes in for a group hug over the whole thing.

18
Aaron Swartz - 12:34 pm 12/20/2002

"First, where is this in the documentation." Sorry, it seems your site is stripping my links out. The post I submitted had numerous links. Documentation is at http://creativecommons.org/metadata/

"And when you have a license in an RSS feed and one in a resource pointed to by the license, you say or'd. Then which one applies?" Huh? Can you clarify the question? If two licenses are said to apply to one thing, then you get a choice. If I say you can come over on the evenings and you can come over on Sundays then you have a choice.

"What happens if full content is duplicated in an RSS feed — does the resource license apply to the material in the feed, or only to resource?" Look at the rdf:about.

"We're asking questions, and you're saying 'read it and apply common sense'. That is not helpful." Why not? I'm happy to answer specific questions.

"And unless you can show me your law degree, I think it's time we heard from the legal people, not another techie giving his interpretation." You're welcome to hire a lawyer. We're not in the business of providing free legal advice at this time.

There are no definitive answers in the law. Even the Supreme Court can be overturned by future Supreme Courts. On the other hand, I've spent a lot of time researching these issues and I'm around to give you my interpretation. Our lawyers, I suspect, have other things to do.

19
Shelley - 12:39 pm 12/20/2002

I also have other things to do.

Any movement proposed by a set of lawyers that push a new type of license out on to the world, and then don't stay around to provide answers as to how it works because "they have other things to do", is nothing more than yet another Sweetness and Light movement, with no substance.

So I'll solve the problem for myself by removing the CCL from my content, my applications, and ensuring it's not a part of any RSS I support at this site.

20
Aaron Swartz - 12:46 pm 12/20/2002

You don't have to trust me to believe what I say. You can verify it all for yourself from the law and caselaw, most of which is online, if you don't believe me.

I suppose that under your theory, anyone who gives their software away has to give you free tech support too? And hiring other people to do the tech support doesn't count? I'm not sure I want to live in such a world.

If you have a series of direct legal questions, I can do my best to answer them. You can also send them to other members of the CC team, and they might answer them. You can also hire them or someone else to answer them for you.

What more do you want us to do? If you tell me, I can try my best to make it happen.

21
Shelley - 1:05 pm 12/20/2002

Aaron, I will repeat — you're not a legal expert. I know you think you're well grounded in this stuff, but you're not a legal expert. If I have problems with the technology, you would be the first I would go to. But my problems are not with the technology.

My problems are with the fact that there is a module for CC proposed for RSS 1.0, and an addition of same for RSS 2.0. Both differ in their interpretation as to what is being impacted by the license — RSS 1.0, it's the resource in the rdf:about. In RSS 2.0, it's the RSS channel, if applied, or to the resource, if applied. None of this was difficult to do technically, but what do these licenses mean in RSS? I don't think there's any fit in a syndication feed for license information. That's _my_ interpretation. Yours could differ. Neither of us is a lawyer, though, so none of us is an expert in this regard.

I will, however, try and package a set of questions to send to the CC team and _hope_ that they provide answers. In fact, I'll attach them to the comments in L. Lessig's weblog, since he just opened the door on software and CCL.

22
James Linden - 3:24 pm 12/20/2002

It's happening again!

Lots of people jump on the bandwagon for the "latest and greatest" concept, application, etc. Very quickly, they jump off the bandwagon when they get a clearer idea of that they really got into. Blogrolling, FOAF, [omit long list] and now CCL.

Shelley - kudos to you for pointing out some of the shortcomings of the CCL system, and sticking with it.

I have been following CC since earlier this year along with the recent discussion on RSS-DEV regarding all this. I, for one, will not be using CCLs for any of my work - code or content.

23
Craig Johnson - 4:16 pm 12/20/2002

Just wanted to say thank you for a great rant!! I think your view of technology idealism is right on, and I know it because I have been the person dropping those bombs:). What is great about the process is not the war zone cleanup you are forced to do, but the thinking process that goes into asking the questions and getting them answered. At the same time, I think having a concrete example in hand (and available to use) is better than a long drawn out draft phase.

So here is hoping that you keep asking the hard questions, and we keep getting answers. That is the only way through the forest that I can see.

In the short term I think we should all be conservative, use the CCL only on things that we are sure we want in the Commons, whether it is a RSS feed or the original content and understand that there are likely to be sticky issues if a CCL'd feed references a non-CCL'd item.

24
Dorothea Salo - 4:55 pm 12/20/2002

Shell, Denise Howell has taken a brief look at the CCL:

http://bgbg.blogspot.com/2002_12_15_bgbg_archive.html#90077201

She might be invited to opine further. No, she's not directly involved with CC, but law is a collective critter anyway, so no harm asking.

25
Denise Howell - 5:29 pm 12/20/2002

First to admit that the techier points of this discussion are well above my head…

That said, what I posted basically says that cues about what license applies that are embedded in a site's RSS probably are just icing on the cake — makes it easier to find and identify usable works — but wouldn't play much of a role in the legal calculus. I'll be curious to hear if any of my blawger-colleagues have further thoughts along these lines, and/or if I'm blowing right by the issue you're interested in.

26

Shelley, since it seems clear from the documentation (http://creativecommons.org/learn/technology/metadata/implement) that the CCL information will have to be added to one's RSS templates, I'm curious about your statement:

"So I'll solve the problem for myself by removing the CCL from my content, my applications, and ensuring it's not a part of any RSS I support at this site."

Am I misunderstanding the CCL documentation? Do you envisage anything else one might need to do in order *not* to support the CCL?

27
Brett Glass - 9:18 pm 12/20/2002

If one actually tries to use the CC license chooser, one unspoken item on the authors' agenda quickly becomes clear: to deprecate licenses similar to the Apache, BSD, and MIT X licenses.

Why? Because, try as you might, you can't cause the Web site to generate a license which allows anyone to do anything they want with the work — except sue you for bugs, etc. in it.

To many, this is the optimal type of license. It's better for the author than the public domain, because it provides liability protection while allowing all of the public (including those who are interested in improving the work and seeking rewards for doing so) to use the work in any way they see fit.

But the CC "license chooser" (or should we call it a "license steerer?") doesn't allow this. If you say that you don't want to limit commercial use, the "chooser" insists that what you're looking for is the public domain, which offers NO protection for the author.

It appears, therefore, that the CC people harbor anti-commercial sentiments and/or would like to steer those who are ignorant of other options to a license similar to the GPL. Not good.

28
mathowie - 9:27 pm 12/20/2002

"But the CC "license chooser" (or should we call it a "license steerer?") doesn't allow this. If you say that you don't want to limit commercial use, the "chooser" insists that what you're looking for is the public domain, which offers NO protection for the author."

huh? You can allow for commercial use, and still create a license as long as you place other controls on your work. The question set's default answers lead to a public domain license because the each question allows for an answer of essentially no protection. If you answer three questions as "I don't want any protection" you end up with a public domain license.

Creative Commons isn't "anti-commercial". If you'd like to allow for any use of your work but still retain ownership of it, it doesn't sound like the CC licenses are lax enough for you, and your best bet is to find another license or write up your own.

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mathowie - 9:38 pm 12/20/2002

Shelly, I work at the Creative Commons, but am not a lawyer, and I'll give you my impression of some of the questions you've asked.

First off, the CC licenses weren't designed for software, they were designed for text, audio, video, and image works. Since the licenses are newly drafted they haven't been tested by courts so the fuzzy edges of what falls under "text, audio, video, and images" hasn't been strictly defined.

When I saw the CC stuff being proposed for RSS, it seemed a little odd and could easily be misconstrued as representing some sort of rights language. It is stated on the CC site at least on the FAQ that we're not trying to develop a rights language, nor are we trying to develop some DRM for people. The intention for CC licenses is for reuse, as they don't infringe in any way on fair use. NetNewsWire shouldn't have to check licenses before displaying feeds, as that's not the intention of the licenses.

I'm not a lawyer but I interpretted the CC license on a RSS file as giving a reader information on reuse of the contents of the site and RSS file. If I have a CC license on all my posts, and you run a webzine and want to reprint a post as an essay in your zine (which doesn't break anything in the license, like being non-commercial, giving you attribution, and not making a derivative work from it), you'll be able to. If you saw the post in your RSS reader first, and want to reprint it in your webzine, you can. But the act of reading RSS in a reader shouldn't rely on the licenses or effect fair use of public feeds.

I doubt the legal standing of RSS feeds is established in any court (whether it is speech, an official document, and/or software code), so it's not exactly easy to answer questions about it.

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Phil Wolff - 12:07 am 12/21/2002

You're recruiting to fill a programming job. You post an ad on Monster. You get a thousand resumes and profiles in response.

Would you accept resumes that have a CCL?

Doing so may require you to change your process. If nothing else, you might have to examine each one for exceptions. Is reading someones resume a commercial use? How about storing it for future consideration? If I add my comments and markups and pass them along, is this a derivative work?

I ask related questions at http://dijest.editthispage.com/resumequity

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Shelley - 12:10 am 12/21/2002

Denise, I wouldn't mind hearing from other legals about CC licenses. And your viewpoint about visible evidence of the license was the type of information I was hoping to come out of conversations about the CC licenses.

Jonathon, I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you're asking. If the weblog tools don't modify the templates automatically to include CC license information in the RSS — something that is still up for discussion — then you wouldn't have to do anything to not attach a CC license to your feed, or weblog postings or any other material that would be covered by the licenses. Am I off the mark with this answer?

Matt, thanks for your answer. What you say does make a lot of sense. By duplicating the license with the RSS feed, the person wanting to reuse (republish) the text associated with the license would not have to return to the original source for the license.

Unfortunately, this is not the interpretation associated with all understandings of CCLs as applied to RSS feeds. This could potentially cause much confusion — especially for sites that support multiple RSS feeds.

Also, your answer did clarify what could be a unique understanding of CC licenses as applied to weblogs. Rather than applying the license to a page of posts, the license could be for each individual post, and could differ. For instance, I may grant public domain access on this posting, but restrict republication rights on others. If I chose this approach, a license would have to be duplicated with the posting, with the posting in category pages, with the posting in the main page, and with the posting in all other archive pages. In addition to the RSS feed.

This highlights another potential problem — RSS feeds are automatic, and template based for the most part. There would be no way to alter the license for each ITEM within the feed, unless the tools that generated the RSS made some significant changes. Based on this, there could realistically be a more restrictive license controlling reuse on a post, while the feed shows the ITEM as public domain (because that's what the template is designed for). If the assumption with the license is that a person interested in republication would then pick the license, this would mean, potentially, that they would pick the one not intended by the author.

This is a worse care scenario, but one that is possible by embedded license information in RSS feeds.

(This conversation doesn't even take into account the legalities of RSS feeds, period, as you mentioned.)

I wasn't trying to rain on anyone's parade with this post and the comments here (and elsewhere).

I was trying to generate conversion about the licenses before the RDF/XML was indiscrimately dessimated. Especially in something like RSS, which is just confusing enough for non-techs that they might make template changes to support it because so and so said to.

It also sounds like there have been discussion about RSS feeds within the Commons. If so, I'm also trying to increase the audience, so to speak.

One last thing — anyway you all can put a discussion list on your main contact page rather than buried in the tech implementation page? I think these issues do go beyond the technology.

Again, many thanks Matt. And appreciations to those who saw this posting as a conversation starter.

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Shelley - 12:13 am 12/21/2002

Phil, you used "implied consent". I could kiss you for that.

33
mathowie - 2:01 am 12/21/2002

Just as a general comment (again IANAL), it sounds like people are getting fair use mixed up in these discussions. The CC licenses don't affect your ability to read a post in a newsreader. It also shouldn't limit who can read a page on your own website.

There might be legal questions about a site reprinting your RSS file in a commercial setting, that gets kind of fuzzy if you specified non-commercial and someone reprints your feed amid popup and popunder advertising. Creative Commons doesn't do enforcement, but it seems you'd have a pretty tight case asking the person reprinting your content to stop (heck, they already do it now when RSS feeds are fully copyrighted).

I know from talking with lawyers about our audio licenses that when you license a song you also license the composition behind it. The melody, the lyrics, the tune. Looking at a site with a RSS duplicate representation, I would tend to think of them in a similar way, that licensing a weblog's content also carries over into other forms. But again, blah blah blah I'm not a lawyer and not giving legal advice or speaking as a representitive in any official capacity, I'm just telling you how it looks to me.

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Sam Ruby - 6:29 am 12/21/2002

Shelley, time to update your update - Lawrence Lessig revised his comments.

http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/lessig/blog/archives/2002_12.shtml#000759

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Matt Croydon - 7:00 am 12/21/2002

Wow.

Great discussion. I'll be careful the next time I think out loud.

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Shelley - 7:34 am 12/21/2002

Sam, I saw this. And I think this was a very disappointing, quick answer.

I will update my post with my comments attached to his. But Lessig's answer, I think, just makes me reject the license that much more.

Matt C, actually I had been raising these issues in the RSS-dev group before your posting, but I hope you do continue thinking out loud.

37
Burningbird - 10:58 am 12/21/2002

Debate continues
Instead of writing a new post, I updated the Bombs away posting to reflect new view, opinions, what have you. I also gave my opinion of the "Coders Only Club" (COC), this tendency on some of the elite technologist to

38
mathowie - 11:28 am 12/21/2002

So Shelly, is your problem that if you wanted to individually license posts on your weblog, that the recent extension to RSS for CC licenses isn't sufficient?

If so, it's something to be taken up with Dave Winer who proposed and implemented the feature, not Creative Commons. If the feature was added as something that could go with each post instead of once for the entire file I think you'd be fine, though I don't know of anyone who is currently licensing each post with a separate license, nor do I envision very many people ever being that thorough with their licenses.

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Shelley - 11:48 am 12/21/2002

Matt, point blank:

CC licenses do not fit within RSS feeds. I won't support them in mine, and I'm trying to raise enough noise so that others won't blindly support them in theirs. No one has once provided a viable reason to have them in the feeds.

Telling someone to look at the rdf:about is not a viable reason.

IMO, I think we should continue as is with the RSS feeds, copyright, fair use, and all. Believe it or now, it'sworking. At least for those of us who publish excerpts.

Force the people who want to publish full text to go back to the source of the text and get the bloody license.

That's RSS. Now as to Creative Commons:

You all need a discussion forum, a way of people to have discussions like these in this posting, reachable from the top page of the site. Not a pure techie one — one open to questions by all. Regardless of whether the questions are 'dumb' or not.

I've been told to 'offer help' if I have problems. Well, I'll help you all set up a weblog with comments, and perhaps guest editing for something such as this. To be honest, something more in line with Meta-Filter would be better. But I'll still help.

Dialogs should be started. Conversation should be encouraged. Don't force communication into weblog posts and emails. Allow it at the Commons. Open the Commons up.

How's that for explaining what I want?

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mathowie - 12:14 pm 12/21/2002

"No one has once provided a viable reason to have them in the feeds."

I just posted my thoughts to your questions on Larry's blog. I see the RSS CCL stuff as just a method of repeating information from your site in two places (both the original site and the feed) instead of one (just the original site)

"You all need a discussion forum"

I agree 100%, which is why I proposed it from day one. But the reality is we're a tiny non-profit with only a few employees, and adding discussion board admin duties could be one person's full time job. We do want to keep channels of communication open and you should see some activity on the creativecommons.org site very soon to meet that need.

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mathowie - 12:49 pm 12/21/2002

Shelly, it sounds like the original reason for this post was the confusion in the utility of adding CC licenses to RSS. I can understand that because I was a bit surprised myself to see CC license info being added to RSS, but I see it as a small additional thing weblog authors can use to let others know their works are freer for reuse than traditional copyright.

Your original post alluded to how CC might cause more problems than is solves and I don't see that being the case. I'm curious to know if your questions about CC have been answered and if so, are you considering putting licenses back on your work (though I assume, not put them on your RSS)?

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Shelley - 1:20 pm 12/21/2002

Matt, I'll be less than honest if I don't admit that I'm hesitant about using the CC licenses at this point. I'm not sure we all fully understand how we're really to use them, and what they really mean.

I'm comfortable with software licenses, and I know copyright and fair use. But I'm not sure how the CC license really does fit in all this. I thought I did at the beginning of the week, and now I'm not so sure. Still a lot of confusion about 'meaning' i.e. legal interpretation.

Perhaps as more information is released, and more conversation about the licenses continues, I'll become more comfortable with them again.

Sorry, Matt. I know that doesn't seem like a 'fair' answer, but it's an honest one.

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mathowie - 1:40 pm 12/21/2002

"Sorry, Matt. I know that doesn't seem like a 'fair' answer, but it's an honest one."

Nope, that's fine. I was just trying to figure out why you changed your opinion on them, and I was hoping it wasn't solely due to the RSS implementation of it.

"…I know copyright and fair use. But I'm not sure how the CC license really does fit in all this"

The CC licenses are aimed solely at helping people say upfront what others can do in terms of reuse, apart from copyright restrictions. As an author you get to keep your copyright, but with a license you can add "I'm telling the world that you can do the following things with my work." That's all it is.

With traditional copyright, I can't re-use any images I see on your photoblog on my own site. I can't reprint a great post from your site on my site (in full) without asking. I can't add bass tracks and additional vocals to your song and release it online. I have to ask you directly before I do any of those things because they all cover reuse that is protected by copyright. All the CC licenes do is allow authors to say upfront what people can do with their stuff.

So no one has to ask me if they want to use my photos in a publicly displayed non-commercial art piece. No one has to ask if they can reprint my essay on browser bugs on their HTML help site. I'm letting people know upfront that it's ok to use my stuff in those specific ways and they don't have to ask me. That's all CC licenses do.

Also, we made a short movie to explain the basics here, which I think is worth mentioning:
http://mirrors.creativecommons.org/

How CC licenses play in the real world and in the courts remains to be seen, but many of your concerns already exist for copyright (theft, rampant reuse without explicit permission, etc). Can I reprint your fully copyrighted RSS feed in full on my site right now? Can I have banner ads running along side it? Probably not, but I've seen it happen online before to my own feeds.

Here's the reality of my situation and why I applied licenes to my work: over the past few years several dozen people have emailed me to request permission for reuse of my photos and essays. I had to answer each one individually, and I'd like to make that automatic for them instead. This way, more people use my creations (since they don't have to go through the bother of asking first), my name gets out there in more places (with attribution requirements), and wild new creations are made based on my work (since I allow for derivative works). Putting something online and into the world already has lots of risk, but I don't want to interfere at all with the legitamite reuses of my work, in fact I want to encourage it.

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Aaron Swartz - 8:23 pm 12/21/2002

Wow, Brett Glass is here!

Phil, CCLs aren't intended to add any *new* restrictions. They shouldn't require you to change your process.

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Jonathon - 12:25 am 12/22/2002

I just think you people are smart. Way smart. Way smarter than me. I know this because I am who I say I am.

Questions:
Who gains the most power from this commons thingy?
Is power a "dead deal"?

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Burningbird - 4:47 pm 12/22/2002

Common Law
The text within this weblog posting is licensed under a Creative Commons License. Please email author notice of re-use as a courtesy. –> Denise Howell is our first non-CC lawyer taking a walk on the Creative Commons wild side

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Creative Commons License
I hadn't realized there was a debate going on about the new Creative Commons License until I read over these

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Vertical Hold - 1:35 pm 12/24/2002

Simple to Complicated
I could have sworn that the Creative Commons Licensing scheme was simple and easy to understand. All rights reserved versus

49

Creative Commons License
I hadn't realized there was a debate going on about the new Creative Commons License until I read over these…

Thanks to all those who have contributed to the discussion. Comments are now closed, but you can contact the author of the post directly.